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Forums - General - Scientology on the news again, Anonymous owned them again

HappySqurriel said:

I fully support freedom of speech regardless of whether a person uses it to express something I am fundamentally against; as long as a person is willing to accept the social consequences from their words. The problem with anonymous is that people hide behind masks which prevents them from facing these social consequences ...

 

There is a difference between social consquences and an organisation vindictively and agressively attempting to ruin people's lives for disagreeing with them.  Do you not believe such actions take place or do you think they should subject themselves to it anyways?

 

starcraft said:
ssj12 said:
Legend11 said:
I'm no fan of Scientology but I'm also no fan of groups of people that hide behind masks in democracies and throw accusations at a religion, a race of people, or whatever.

accusations that are true.

We wear masks so we dont get lynched by the Co$.

No, you wear masks because your not entirely sure that your morally or legally in the right.

 


What is morally or legally objectionable about protesting an orgnisation for its illegal and morally questionable practises?  Sorry but given that Anonymous has stated they do not wish to prevent people from believing what they want only to prevent CoS from extorting, murdering, and otherwise abusing its members I don't see how anything they've done is inappropriate, morally or legally.  Perhaps you know of something I don't?

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
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Sqrl said:
 
 

What is morally or legally objectionable about protesting an orgnisation for its illegal and morally questionable practises? Sorry but given that Anonymous has stated they do not wish to prevent people from believing what they want only to prevent CoS from extorting, murdering, and otherwise abusing its members I don't see how anything they've done is inappropriate, morally or legally. Perhaps you know of something I don't?

 

To say that scientology is an evil religion or that the Church of Scientology is an inherently illegal institution is ridiculously one-sided. I'm a Catholic/Christian, and I'm disgusted when I hear about other Catholics/Christians being extorted or harrassed by individuals or break-off sects. I'm disgusted when I hear about Catholic priests molesting young boys and girls. But I would be mortified if someone that didn't wish to be identified and forced to back up their allegations labelled my religion evil and actively demonstrated against it based on these isolated incidents.

These protests have received so much publicity that it would be impossible for the CoS to harrass it's members were they to unveil their identities. Not that I actually believe that would happen anyway. The accused should always have a right to face their accuser. Yes, I agree that the religion is complete crap, but people are perfectly permitted to believe it free from persecution. If people wish to be seperated from non-believers, that is their choice. The biggest problem with all the conspiracy theories encircling Scientology is that at the end of the day it assumes such monumental stupidity on behalf of all those who were supposedely "duped and extorted."

Ssj12. If you truly believe what you are saying is correct and morally sound, don't wear a mask to your next rally. Be held accountable for your opinions.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Scientology still exists in Belgium, strange;..






starcraft said:
Sqrl said:
 
 

What is morally or legally objectionable about protesting an orgnisation for its illegal and morally questionable practises? Sorry but given that Anonymous has stated they do not wish to prevent people from believing what they want only to prevent CoS from extorting, murdering, and otherwise abusing its members I don't see how anything they've done is inappropriate, morally or legally. Perhaps you know of something I don't?

 

To say that scientology is an evil religion or that the Church of Scientology is an inherently illegal institution is ridiculously one-sided. I'm a Catholic/Christian, and I'm disgusted when I hear about other Catholics/Christians being extorted or harrassed by individuals or break-off sects. I'm disgusted when I hear about Catholic priests molesting young boys and girls. But I would be mortified if someone that didn't wish to be identified and forced to back up their allegations labelled my religion evil and actively demonstrated against it based on these isolated incidents.

These protests have received so much publicity that it would be impossible for the CoS to harrass it's members were they to unveil their identities. Not that I actually believe that would happen anyway. The accused should always have a right to face their accuser. Yes, I agree that the religion is complete crap, but people are perfectly permitted to believe it free from persecution. If people wish to be seperated from non-believers, that is their choice. The biggest problem with all the conspiracy theories encircling Scientology is that at the end of the day it assumes such monumental stupidity on behalf of all those who were supposedely "duped and extorted."

Ssj12. If you truly believe what you are saying is correct and morally sound, don't wear a mask to your next rally. Be held accountable for your opinions.

 


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even know anything about the church? You seem to think that just because it's labelled a religion, it's the same thing as Christianity. Let me ask you some questions though. Does the Catholic Church withold information until you spend thousands of dollars to "level up"? Do they force people to work full-time for $75 a week if they can't afford payments? Do they tell people they have to leave their families and friends and drop all contact? Do they demand their followers go off medications they need to remain mentally and physically healthy? Do they harass, threaten and frame people who speak out against them? Do they actively try to censor negative information about them? Want me to keep listing things the CoS has done? It's a business that acts like a cult to lure in, manipulate and extort weak (monumentally stupid) people. This is true whether you believe it or not.

This isn't "conspiracy theory". Go look up information if you don't believe me. There are many first-hand accounts from people who have left the church and from people who have been targetted by the church. Videos, articles, the works. If you want I can even post a list of links. Well, in addition to the ones I've already posted and you've ignored.

I'm really not even that passionate about this. It just annoys me when people argue about things they don't even know about without even listening to the people who actually do. At least look into this before opening your mouth.



Phendrana said:
 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even know anything about the church? You seem to think that just because it's labelled a religion, it's the same thing as Christianity. Let me ask you some questions though. Does the Catholic Church withold information until you spend thousands of dollars to "level up"? Do they force people to work full-time for $75 a week if they can't afford payments? Do they tell people they have to leave their families and friends and drop all contact? Do they demand their followers go off medications they need to remain mentally and physically healthy? Do they harass, threaten and frame people who speak out against them? Do they actively try to censor negative information about them? Want me to keep listing things the CoS has done? It's a business that acts like a cult to lure in, manipulate and extort weak (monumentally stupid) people. This is true whether you believe it or not.

This isn't "conspiracy theory". Go look up information if you don't believe me. There are many first-hand accounts from people who have left the church and from people who have been targetted by the church. Videos, articles, the works. If you want I can even post a list of links. Well, in addition to the ones I've already posted and you've ignored.

I'm really not even that passionate about this. It just annoys me when people argue about things they don't even know about without even listening to the people who actually do. At least look into this before opening your mouth.

I am sure I have just as much knowledge of the Church as you do. If you re-read my post you'll find I didn't compare Christianity to Scientology, but merely illustrated how it must feel for devoted scientologists to have to suffer the indignity of a bunch of people protesting against their beliefs based on a few isolated incidents. To add insult to injury, the media grants broad one-sided coverage to these people who don't even have the balls to identify themselves and be held accountable for their opinions, primarily because a famous celebrity decided to criticise Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressents.

Tom Cruise believes in an absolutely fruity religion in my opinion, but at least he had the decency to defend his opinion in an open and honest manner. Project Chanology (the codename for Anonymous' campaign against the CoS) began in response to the CoS's request that Youtube remove a video CoS produced. They claimed that it was internet censorship, despite the fact that thousands of content creators have asked (successfully) that Youtube remove videos. They then proceeded to launch a campaign of prank calls and other ridiculous forms of harrassment to try and "impede CoS's internet-censorship efforts."

Whilst I would still take issue with many of the groups methods, my primary problem with Anonymous is their total lack of accountability. The last group of so-called "vigilanties" I can think of that tried to co-ordinate mass rallies targeted at a specific group of people whilst cloaked and masked was the KKK.

Lack of accountability is rarely a good thing.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

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Phendrana said:
 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even know anything about the church? You seem to think that just because it's labelled a religion, it's the same thing as Christianity. Let me ask you some questions though. Does the Catholic Church withold information until you spend thousands of dollars to "level up"? Do they force people to work full-time for $75 a week if they can't afford payments? Do they tell people they have to leave their families and friends and drop all contact? Do they demand their followers go off medications they need to remain mentally and physically healthy? Do they harass, threaten and frame people who speak out against them? Do they actively try to censor negative information about them? Want me to keep listing things the CoS has done? It's a business that acts like a cult to lure in, manipulate and extort weak (monumentally stupid) people. This is true whether you believe it or not.

I just thought of another group that meets most of the criteria you listed here.  The Exclusive Brethren is an obscure Christian sect that has a strong seperatist policy.  Though it is a global religion, my knowledge is primarily relating to the Australian branch.

They constantly get into trouble with the Australian media for threatening people, forcing fathers/mothers that divorce their partner and leave the religion out of their children's lives etc.  They are regularly credited with having broad political, economic and even violent means of threatening their detractors, and are accused of exploiting these means from time to time.

Yet whenever an academic or reporter attacks this group, their face and identity are in full view.  They are, in every sense of the word, accountable for their criticisms.  Personally, I believe that adds a whole lot more weight to their arguments against the group.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:
Phendrana said:
 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even know anything about the church? You seem to think that just because it's labelled a religion, it's the same thing as Christianity. Let me ask you some questions though. Does the Catholic Church withold information until you spend thousands of dollars to "level up"? Do they force people to work full-time for $75 a week if they can't afford payments? Do they tell people they have to leave their families and friends and drop all contact? Do they demand their followers go off medications they need to remain mentally and physically healthy? Do they harass, threaten and frame people who speak out against them? Do they actively try to censor negative information about them? Want me to keep listing things the CoS has done? It's a business that acts like a cult to lure in, manipulate and extort weak (monumentally stupid) people. This is true whether you believe it or not.

This isn't "conspiracy theory". Go look up information if you don't believe me. There are many first-hand accounts from people who have left the church and from people who have been targetted by the church. Videos, articles, the works. If you want I can even post a list of links. Well, in addition to the ones I've already posted and you've ignored.

I'm really not even that passionate about this. It just annoys me when people argue about things they don't even know about without even listening to the people who actually do. At least look into this before opening your mouth.

I am sure I have just as much knowledge of the Church as you do. If you re-read my post you'll find I didn't compare Christianity to Scientology, but merely illustrated how it must feel for devoted scientologists to have to suffer the indignity of a bunch of people protesting against their beliefs based on a few isolated incidents. To add insult to injury, the media grants broad one-sided coverage to these people who don't even have the balls to identify themselves and be held accountable for their opinions, primarily because a famous celebrity decided to criticise Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressents.

Tom Cruise believes in an absolutely fruity religion in my opinion, but at least he had the decency to defend his opinion in an open and honest manner. Project Chanology (the codename for Anonymous' campaign against the CoS) began in response to the CoS's request that Youtube remove a video CoS produced. They claimed that it was internet censorship, despite the fact that thousands of content creators have asked (successfully) that Youtube remove videos. They then proceeded to launch a campaign of prank calls and other ridiculous forms of harrassment to try and "impede CoS's internet-censorship efforts."

Whilst I would still take issue with many of the groups methods, my primary problem with Anonymous is their total lack of accountability. The last group of so-called "vigilanties" I can think of that tried to co-ordinate mass rallies targeted at a specific group of people whilst cloaked and masked was the KKK.

Lack of accountability is rarely a good thing.

 


BAHAHAHAHA... wow, seriously you say you know what the CoS has done yet think they won't try to put as many members of Anonymous under the SP list, and try to ruin them in every way.  Plus Anonymous is no where near the KKK the cloest thing to the KKK in this situation is Scientology, lots of the CoS practices are close to what the KKK did back in the day, paying outragous dues, moving up in ranks, working for the KKK, abuse of power, being more like a business then apart of religion (yes KKK was apart of christianity). 



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

MaxwellGT2000 said:
starcraft said:
 

I am sure I have just as much knowledge of the Church as you do. If you re-read my post you'll find I didn't compare Christianity to Scientology, but merely illustrated how it must feel for devoted scientologists to have to suffer the indignity of a bunch of people protesting against their beliefs based on a few isolated incidents. To add insult to injury, the media grants broad one-sided coverage to these people who don't even have the balls to identify themselves and be held accountable for their opinions, primarily because a famous celebrity decided to criticise Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressents.

Tom Cruise believes in an absolutely fruity religion in my opinion, but at least he had the decency to defend his opinion in an open and honest manner. Project Chanology (the codename for Anonymous' campaign against the CoS) began in response to the CoS's request that Youtube remove a video CoS produced. They claimed that it was internet censorship, despite the fact that thousands of content creators have asked (successfully) that Youtube remove videos. They then proceeded to launch a campaign of prank calls and other ridiculous forms of harrassment to try and "impede CoS's internet-censorship efforts."

Whilst I would still take issue with many of the groups methods, my primary problem with Anonymous is their total lack of accountability. The last group of so-called "vigilanties" I can think of that tried to co-ordinate mass rallies targeted at a specific group of people whilst cloaked and masked was the KKK.

Lack of accountability is rarely a good thing.

 


BAHAHAHAHA... wow, seriously you say you know what the CoS has done yet think they won't try to put as many members of Anonymous under the SP list, and try to ruin them in every way. Plus Anonymous is no where near the KKK the cloest thing to the KKK in this situation is Scientology, lots of the CoS practices are close to what the KKK did back in the day, paying outragous dues, moving up in ranks, working for the KKK, abuse of power, being more like a business then apart of religion (yes KKK was apart of christianity).

If your so sure of everything they have done, so sure that these are not isolated incidents, why not face them?  Does not a murderer, fraudster or blackmailer have a right to face and question his accuser?  I did not draw any relationship between Anonymous and the KKK beyond the fact that they each targeted a certain group of people and each wished to do it without being accountable for their accusations. 

At the end of the day, all you did in that post was repeat the accusations against the CoS, you didn't deal with what I'm actually saying.  Thats fine, as long as the next thing you intend to do is say "my name is ____ _______ and I accuse the CoS of ________ and my evidence is ______ ."

But you won't do that, and therefore deny the CoS it's right to natural justice. 

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
starcraft said:
 

I am sure I have just as much knowledge of the Church as you do. If you re-read my post you'll find I didn't compare Christianity to Scientology, but merely illustrated how it must feel for devoted scientologists to have to suffer the indignity of a bunch of people protesting against their beliefs based on a few isolated incidents. To add insult to injury, the media grants broad one-sided coverage to these people who don't even have the balls to identify themselves and be held accountable for their opinions, primarily because a famous celebrity decided to criticise Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressents.

Tom Cruise believes in an absolutely fruity religion in my opinion, but at least he had the decency to defend his opinion in an open and honest manner. Project Chanology (the codename for Anonymous' campaign against the CoS) began in response to the CoS's request that Youtube remove a video CoS produced. They claimed that it was internet censorship, despite the fact that thousands of content creators have asked (successfully) that Youtube remove videos. They then proceeded to launch a campaign of prank calls and other ridiculous forms of harrassment to try and "impede CoS's internet-censorship efforts."

Whilst I would still take issue with many of the groups methods, my primary problem with Anonymous is their total lack of accountability. The last group of so-called "vigilanties" I can think of that tried to co-ordinate mass rallies targeted at a specific group of people whilst cloaked and masked was the KKK.

Lack of accountability is rarely a good thing.

 


BAHAHAHAHA... wow, seriously you say you know what the CoS has done yet think they won't try to put as many members of Anonymous under the SP list, and try to ruin them in every way. Plus Anonymous is no where near the KKK the cloest thing to the KKK in this situation is Scientology, lots of the CoS practices are close to what the KKK did back in the day, paying outragous dues, moving up in ranks, working for the KKK, abuse of power, being more like a business then apart of religion (yes KKK was apart of christianity).

If your so sure of everything they have done, so sure that these are not isolated incidents, why not face them?  Does not a murderer, fraudster or blackmailer have a right to face and question his accuser?  I did not draw any relationship between Anonymous and the KKK beyond the fact that they each targeted a certain group of people and each wished to do it without being accountable for their accusations. 

At the end of the day, all you did in that post was repeat the accusations against the CoS, you didn't deal with what I'm actually saying.  Thats fine, as long as the next thing you intend to do is say "my name is ____ _______ and I accuse the CoS of ________ and my evidence is ______ ."

But you won't do that, and therefore deny the CoS it's right to natural justice. 

 


 No they're not isolated incidents, as it costs money to have the initial test, and then starts the process of the extortion.  

And again you listen to no one when they show you many cases of where people spoke out, did your little "I accuse the CoS for ________ with these facts" and they're in ruins now as the CoS fabricated ways to get out of it and ruin the person in the process or kill the person.  Being Anonymous is a counter move against the CoS to voice the wrongs while not being blamed for things they never did or even killed.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

starcraft said:
 

I am sure I have just as much knowledge of the Church as you do. If you re-read my post you'll find I didn't compare Christianity to Scientology, but merely illustrated how it must feel for devoted scientologists to have to suffer the indignity of a bunch of people protesting against their beliefs based on a few isolated incidents. To add insult to injury, the media grants broad one-sided coverage to these people who don't even have the balls to identify themselves and be held accountable for their opinions, primarily because a famous celebrity decided to criticise Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressents.

Tom Cruise believes in an absolutely fruity religion in my opinion, but at least he had the decency to defend his opinion in an open and honest manner. Project Chanology (the codename for Anonymous' campaign against the CoS) began in response to the CoS's request that Youtube remove a video CoS produced. They claimed that it was internet censorship, despite the fact that thousands of content creators have asked (successfully) that Youtube remove videos. They then proceeded to launch a campaign of prank calls and other ridiculous forms of harrassment to try and "impede CoS's internet-censorship efforts."

Whilst I would still take issue with many of the groups methods, my primary problem with Anonymous is their total lack of accountability. The last group of so-called "vigilanties" I can think of that tried to co-ordinate mass rallies targeted at a specific group of people whilst cloaked and masked was the KKK.

Lack of accountability is rarely a good thing.

 


 I agree that it's not the followers that are the problem. They're just people looking for answers that got taken advantage of by a manipulative group. The problem's with the overall organization. It's not just a few people here and there that taint the church's teachings. These tactics ARE the church's teachings. To use your example, it would be like if Catholicism had a policy supporting the molestation of little boys. It stops being about one or two isolated incidents when the church teaches its followers to exercise these practices. Just to show what I'm talking about, here are some quotes from their office policy letters regarding how to handle enemy SPs (critics of the church):

"May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

"The homes, property, places and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppress Scientology or Scientologists are all beyond any protection of Scientology Ethics, unless absolved by later Ethics or an amnesty."

There's another one I can't find that says to discover their crimes, and if they don't have any real crimes to manufacture fake ones (frame them). These are borderline mob tactics here.

This whole ordeal was started by the Cruise video. That doesn't mean the church is clean of these accusations though. The movement started very immaturely, but it's since evolved to a level beyond prank phone calls. I get the feeling you don't like Anonymous, which might be a factor in why you're hesitant to support the protests. 

And like I said before, the church goes after people. Just by looking at the link about Paulette Cooper in conjunction with those quotes gives you a good idea of the lengths they're willing to go. I think the only way you could go up against an organization like that is anonymously.