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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174
palou said:
WolfpackN64 said:

You have to see it like the row of natural numbers. Yes you can have infinity, but only in one way, It's impossible to regress infinitly in natural numbers (except through asympotes), one moment, you will hit zero and you can't regress past zero.

why would you, though? 

 

I'd say it behaves more like the rationals, no? If you say A causes B, you can (by normal intuition) find an event in between, serving as a link between the two.

 

Let's say, the strictly positive rationals, for example, to fit the "always something before" part, no? Why would that be any less valid?

But you CAN regress infinitly in the rationals. Part of the argument is that contingent beings cannot cause themselves and thus you NEED a necessary being. Making it more akin to a natural numbers row.



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WolfpackN64 said:
setsunatenshi said:

please name one such example. bear in mind we are looking for a positive argument for whatever god you claim to hold in existence without pulling any logical fallacies. 

Again, the cosmological argument. It's been debated over and over, but a clear refutation hasn't really come to bear.

that argument begins with a false premise and after doing special pleading for some divine entity, is not a positive claim of any specific divinity. unless you have some different version of the argument i'm not aware of



WolfpackN64 said:
palou said:

why would you, though? 

 

I'd say it behaves more like the rationals, no? If you say A causes B, you can (by normal intuition) find an event in between, serving as a link between the two.

 

Let's say, the strictly positive rationals, for example, to fit the "always something before" part, no? Why would that be any less valid?

But you CAN regress infinitly in the rationals. Part of the argument is that contingent beings cannot cause themselves and thus you NEED a necessary being. Making it more akin to a natural numbers row.

why can't there just be an infinite row of events, instead?

 

As described by the strictly (non-zero) positive rationals, for example.



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setsunatenshi said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Again, the cosmological argument. It's been debated over and over, but a clear refutation hasn't really come to bear.

that argument begins with a false premise and after doing special pleading for some divine entity, is not a positive claim of any specific divinity. unless you have some different version of the argument i'm not aware of

Epistemology 101: because you want something to be true or false dosn't make it so. The premise is legitimate.



 



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palou said:
WolfpackN64 said:

But you CAN regress infinitly in the rationals. Part of the argument is that contingent beings cannot cause themselves and thus you NEED a necessary being. Making it more akin to a natural numbers row.

why can't there just be an infinite row of events, instead?

 

As described by the strictly (non-zero) positive rationals, for example.

Again, because contingent causes can't cause themselves, they need to be caused. You need an efficient first cause so you can start the chain. Once started, your cause can advance infinitly.



WolfpackN64 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well, that's how I interpreted it.  Feel free to clarify.

I just stated the argument from time has been developed in the islamic world.

In that case I fail to see how that addresses my initial point at all.  



WolfpackN64 said:
palou said:

why can't there just be an infinite row of events, instead?

 

As described by the strictly (non-zero) positive rationals, for example.

Again, because contingent causes can't cause themselves, they need to be caused. You need an efficient first cause so you can start the chain. Once started, your cause can advance infinitly.

I'm not talking about anything causing itself, I simply mean that I don't see a reason for there not to be an infinite number of events. there's an infinite number of events between our two replies, for example.



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JWeinCom said:
WolfpackN64 said:

I just stated the argument from time has been developed in the islamic world.

In that case I fail to see how that addresses my initial point at all.  

I'm sorry, what was your initial point. Got a bit confused responding to different people.



WolfpackN64 said:
setsunatenshi said:

that argument begins with a false premise and after doing special pleading for some divine entity, is not a positive claim of any specific divinity. unless you have some different version of the argument i'm not aware of

Epistemology 101: because you want something to be true or false dosn't make it so. The premise is legitimate.

state the premise please and I will demonstrate why it's false. I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume you're going to present the same tired old argument I heard a million times

 

state the argument and I will point out every single logical fallacy.