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@Jaicee also, in response to your claims that transwomen attempt suicide at a lower rate than ciswomen:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
42% of transwomen attempt suicide, 46% of transmen do, the overall number is 4.6%, you cannot tell me that it's higher for ciswomen than transwomen.

Also, thinking more about it, I'm baffled as to how the term TERF can be compared to the terms bitch, cunt and slut. The latter three refer to the sex of the individual, and those are obviously slurs, however the term TERF is not referring to the sex of the individual, but rather to the person's ideology/beliefs.

Last edited by VGPolyglot - on 03 June 2018

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VGPolyglot said:
Jaicee said:

I recommend reading the article.

I see that, but what would you prefer I use? If you want a self-identified term, I'll use it, but I'm definitely not going to agree with your thoughts on transgender issues. I also don't understand this argument:

"Understanding that gender is imposed, and is oppressive/exists to create a hierarchy between men and women."

How can you simultaneously say that gender is imposed, and refuse to accept those who refuse to have the sex that they don't associate with imposed on them?

I think you both have good arguments about transgender women and their role in feminism.

 

If I talk to a transgender woman, aka a biological man who identifies himself as a woman and tries to be seen as a woman, I would definitely address her as a woman. Also normally one can not know how many X and Y chromosomes an unknown person has, one can only assume on the basis of their appearance, so transgender women are strongly affected by the social norms for women.


However, transgender women and biological women can not be treated equally in all aspects. Women's sports leagues are a good example, they exist mainly for two reasons:
a) the obvious one, women have less physical strength than men, so they are unable to compete with men in physicaly demanding Sports.
b) in less physical demanding Sports, like chess, women's sports leagues exist to counteract the social and historical disadvanteges women have and to provide an environment in which a healthy competitive scene can develop.(pretty feminist idea if you ask me)

It's debatable if transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports leagues, they have better physical conditions than women, even if they take hormones, and even though they have social disadvantages compared to men these are very different and not really comparable to the ones women have.

 

I actually have a perfect example of point b).
In February of this year, the Canadian Starcraft 2 pro Sasha "Scarlett" Hostyn won a big tournament in Korea tied to the Olympics. A little while later I read an article about the tournament in which the author arguaed that winning that prestigeous tounament wasn't only a huge acomplishment for her but also for all women in e-sports. Scarlett is a transgender woman so i have trouble to understand how she could be a inspiration for biological women.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 03 June 2018

Former reddit CEO Pao:



VGPolyglot said:
numberwang said:

Leave it to VGP to tire a feminist with too much feminism.

That's implying that I do not consider myself a feminist. However, essentially my argument is that trans women should be included in the feminist movement because they want to be accepted as women, while trans men want to be accepted as men and repeatedly calling them women and saying that they're women and will always be women and that they're not men is damaging to them.

"That's implying that I do not consider myself a feminist."

you cannot be a feminist while simultaneously denying the biological basis for being a woman/female for obvious reasons

first off, biological men obviously do not have to contend with the same biological issues women do... so to reject the biological basis you instantly trivialize those issues that are rooted in biology

secondly you essentially erase women as a category since any man at any time can identify as a woman which obviously destroys the distinguishing line between the two

now i don't see how someone can rationally claim to advocate for women while at the same time erasing the boundary between men and women that makes women a distinct group... its absolutely nonsensical and jaicee realises this and that is why she rejects the idea that a biological male can simply become a woman through identifying as one



MrWayne said:
VGPolyglot said:

I see that, but what would you prefer I use? If you want a self-identified term, I'll use it, but I'm definitely not going to agree with your thoughts on transgender issues. I also don't understand this argument:

"Understanding that gender is imposed, and is oppressive/exists to create a hierarchy between men and women."

How can you simultaneously say that gender is imposed, and refuse to accept those who refuse to have the sex that they don't associate with imposed on them?

I think you both have good arguments about transgender women and their role in feminism.

 

If I talk to a transgender woman, aka a biological man who identifies himself as a woman and tries to be seen as a woman, I would definitely address her as a woman. Also normally one can not know how many X and Y chromosomes an unknown person has, one can only assume on the basis of their appearance, so transgender women are strongly affected by the social norms for women.


However, transgender women and biological women can not be treated equally in all aspects. Women's sports leagues are a good example, they exist mainly for two reasons:
a) the obvious one, women have less physical strength than men, so they are unable to compete with men in physicaly demanding Sports.
b) in less physical demanding Sports, like chess, women's sports leagues exist to counteract the social and historical disadvanteges women have and to provide an environment in which a healthy competitive scene can develop.(pretty feminist idea if you ask me)

It's debatable if transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports leagues, they have better physical conditions than women, even if they take hormones, and even though they have social disadvantages compared to men these are very different and not really comparable to the ones women have.

 

I actually have a perfect example of point b).
In February of this year, the Canadian Starcraft 2 pro Sasha "Scarlett" Hostyn won a big tournament in Korea tied to the Olympics. A little while later I read an article about the tournament in which the author arguaed that winning that prestigeous tounament wasn't only a huge acomplishment for her but also for all women in e-sports. Scarlett is a transgender woman so i have trouble to understand how she could be a inspiration for biological women.

i don't get this stance...

 

"If I talk to a transgender woman, aka a biological man who identifies himself as a woman and tries to be seen as a woman, I would definitely address her as a woman."

ok fair enough you accept their identity here

"It's debatable if transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports leagues"

but deny their identity here

why is it ok to throw out the biological basis for sex in one instance but not another?



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numberwang said:

Here is something interesting, 160 women were asked if they preferred a muscular over a normal/slim male body (using photos).

Researchers asked 160 women to rate the attractiveness of headless male torsos and every single woman chose the stronger men over the weak. Some women may claim that chiselled abs and giant biceps are not what they are seeking in a man. But a scientific study suggests that if your female partner tells you this, she is probably just being kind.

“We weren’t surprised that women found physically strong men attractive ... what did surprise us was just how powerful the effect was,” said Aaron Sell, a senior lecturer at Griffith University, Queensland, Australia, who led the work. “Our data couldn’t find even a single woman that preferred weaker or feminine male bodies.”

The strength of a man was by far the strongest predictor of whether he was rated as attractive - it explained 70% of the difference in scores.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/dec/13/polish-up-your-pecs-women-prefer-strong-men-say-scientists

 

be careful you're drawing awfully close to suggesting that there's a correlation between a man's capacity  for violence and attractiveness when it comes to women and that would be a really misogynist thing to say



o_O.Q said:
MrWayne said:

I think you both have good arguments about transgender women and their role in feminism.

 

If I talk to a transgender woman, aka a biological man who identifies himself as a woman and tries to be seen as a woman, I would definitely address her as a woman. Also normally one can not know how many X and Y chromosomes an unknown person has, one can only assume on the basis of their appearance, so transgender women are strongly affected by the social norms for women.


However, transgender women and biological women can not be treated equally in all aspects. Women's sports leagues are a good example, they exist mainly for two reasons:
a) the obvious one, women have less physical strength than men, so they are unable to compete with men in physicaly demanding Sports.
b) in less physical demanding Sports, like chess, women's sports leagues exist to counteract the social and historical disadvanteges women have and to provide an environment in which a healthy competitive scene can develop.(pretty feminist idea if you ask me)

It's debatable if transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports leagues, they have better physical conditions than women, even if they take hormones, and even though they have social disadvantages compared to men these are very different and not really comparable to the ones women have.

 

I actually have a perfect example of point b).
In February of this year, the Canadian Starcraft 2 pro Sasha "Scarlett" Hostyn won a big tournament in Korea tied to the Olympics. A little while later I read an article about the tournament in which the author arguaed that winning that prestigeous tounament wasn't only a huge acomplishment for her but also for all women in e-sports. Scarlett is a transgender woman so i have trouble to understand how she could be a inspiration for biological women.

i don't get this stance...

 

"If I talk to a transgender woman, aka a biological man who identifies himself as a woman and tries to be seen as a woman, I would definitely address her as a woman."

ok fair enough you accept their identity here

"It's debatable if transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sports leagues"

but deny their identity here

why is it ok to throw out the biological basis for sex in one instance but not another?

because these are very different situations.

If the instance is heavily tied to the physiology of the women body or to being born and raised as a women, women and transgender women have a different view and experiences but there are many cases where it's not important what's between you legs or how your parents raised you.

So I would say feminism isn't a movement for transgender women but they definitely benefit from it, so it's pretty logical for them to be feminists..

btw Feminism is a movement for women but you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist.



o_O.Q said:
numberwang said:

Here is something interesting, 160 women were asked if they preferred a muscular over a normal/slim male body (using photos).

Researchers asked 160 women to rate the attractiveness of headless male torsos and every single woman chose the stronger men over the weak. Some women may claim that chiselled abs and giant biceps are not what they are seeking in a man. But a scientific study suggests that if your female partner tells you this, she is probably just being kind.

“We weren’t surprised that women found physically strong men attractive ... what did surprise us was just how powerful the effect was,” said Aaron Sell, a senior lecturer at Griffith University, Queensland, Australia, who led the work. “Our data couldn’t find even a single woman that preferred weaker or feminine male bodies.”

The strength of a man was by far the strongest predictor of whether he was rated as attractive - it explained 70% of the difference in scores.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/dec/13/polish-up-your-pecs-women-prefer-strong-men-say-scientists

 

be careful you're drawing awfully close to suggesting that there's a correlation between a man's capacity  for violence and attractiveness when it comes to women and that would be a really misogynist thing to say

Neither he nor the researchers draw this line. In fact, the researchers did not investigate if there is a correlation between a men's capacity for violence and his attractiveness to women.

You've made a logical fallacy. a => b and a => c does not imply b => c.



numberwang said:

Former reddit CEO Pao:

I wanted to stay out of this but exactly what does she suggest they should do, fire people who can't get laid or buy them prostitutes?



MrWayne said:
o_O.Q said:

 

be careful you're drawing awfully close to suggesting that there's a correlation between a man's capacity  for violence and attractiveness when it comes to women and that would be a really misogynist thing to say

Neither he nor the researchers draw this line. In fact, the researchers did not investigate if there is a correlation between a men's capacity for violence and his attractiveness to women.

You've made a logical fallacy. a => b and a => c does not imply b => c.

from my perspective he seemed to be implying that so i was warning him, i didn't draw the conclusion

but regardless, why do you from your perspective believe women are more attracted to men who exhibit a greater capacity for strength as this study has demonstrated?

this is ironically for this thread a clear psychological difference between men and women in mate selection