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Forums - General Discussion - Doe it really matter if God exists or not...?

 

I am

Theist 96 20.25%
 
Atheist 178 37.55%
 
Agnostic 96 20.25%
 
Spiritual but non theist 29 6.12%
 
Other 32 6.75%
 
God. 43 9.07%
 
Total:474
o_O.Q said:
palou said:

 

I mean, even with religion, how could you say that god's given morality is OBJECTIVELY ideal? 

 

because over a long period of time we've observed what concepts lead to stable, prosperous societies/individuals and how the ignoring of those concepts have lead to the downfall of societies/individuals

in short the answer is ironically the same for our sciences - observations of what works over long periods of times repetitively 

and that's why we associated these concepts with the supernatural because they appear to transcend our limited scope of reality

concepts such as do onto others as you would have them do onto you

My "God of the gaps" fallacy senses are tingling.



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Arminillo said:
palou said:

 

I mean, even with religion, how could you say that god's given morality is OBJECTIVELY ideal? 

 

because god wouldve created morality. whatever one he has is probably pretty tip-top.

Which is written in the bible. Which he apparently, wrote. So basically, you have someone declaring his own morality to be the best.

 

Another thing I never undrstood: Even if you believe that god exists, how do you know that he is a force of good? Pretty much everyone would SAY that they are good, regardless of objective.



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Aura7541 said:
o_O.Q said:

because over a long period of time we've observed what concepts lead to stable, prosperous societies/individuals and how the ignoring of those concepts have lead to the downfall of societies/individuals

in short the answer is ironically the same for our sciences - observations of what works over long periods of times repetitively 

and that's why we associated these concepts with the supernatural because they appear to transcend our limited scope of reality

concepts such as do onto others as you would have them do onto you

My "God of the gaps" fallacy senses are tingling.

Especially considering just how many gods we invented for phenomens we eventually were able to explain without them...



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palou said:
o_O.Q said:

because over a long period of time we've observed what concepts lead to stable, prosperous societies/individuals and how the ignoring of those concepts have lead to the downfall of societies/individuals

in short the answer is ironically the same for our sciences - observations of what works over long periods of times repetitively 

and that's why we associated these concepts with the supernatural because they appear to transcend our limited scope of reality

concepts such as do onto others as you would have them do onto you

If that is your answer, I do not see how god needs to be implied. Morality, its purposes and effects, have been discussed extensively by many great minds. (Bentham, Mills, Kant, Rawls...)

 

Game theory can turn optimizing human behaviour into mathematical equations. 

 

No religion needed. If you say it's a science, then leave it to scientists, with more complete procedures.

 

concepts of gods and stories have been used to facilitate consumption of these ideas by as wide a group of people as possible

...how do you do that with maths equations?

its not simply about coming to understand what behavioral patterns are best for the individual and society but also about how they can be communicated best to as many people as possible

which is why its a mistake to simply throw out the usefulness of these stories simply because the understanding of what is being said has degenerated



Aura7541 said:
o_O.Q said:

because over a long period of time we've observed what concepts lead to stable, prosperous societies/individuals and how the ignoring of those concepts have lead to the downfall of societies/individuals

in short the answer is ironically the same for our sciences - observations of what works over long periods of times repetitively 

and that's why we associated these concepts with the supernatural because they appear to transcend our limited scope of reality

concepts such as do onto others as you would have them do onto you

My "God of the gaps" fallacy senses are tingling.

can you elaborate on where i have been using that fallacy for my argument?



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o_O.Q said:
Aura7541 said:

My "God of the gaps" fallacy senses are tingling.

can you elaborate on where i have been using that fallacy for my argument?

Because your attempt to link the concepts you mentioned to the supernatural was a non sequitor. The topic was about observation of concepts that led to stable prosperous societies and unstable chaotic societies, not the supernatural. In addition, you made no references to any direct observations of how supernatural phenomena affects those concepts nor have you also proven the existence of those supernatural phenomena. So in order for your "God of the Gaps" fallacy to not be true, you have to:

(1) Prove the existence of supernatural phenomena by providing direct, observable evidence.
(2) Prove that the supernatural phenomena are caused by God because the claim that supernatural phenomena can occur without God is as valid as the claim that they can occur with God.
(3) Identify the specific phenomena that supposedly lead to the formation of the concepts that promote stable societies.
(4) Prove that there is a causal (correlation is not adequate enough) relationship between supernatural phenomena and those concepts.

However, considering that your arguments are solely reliant of the Proof By Assertion fallacy and do not fulfill the burden of proof, it is impossible for you to disprove my "God of the Gaps" fallacy claim.



Aura7541 said:
o_O.Q said:

can you elaborate on where i have been using that fallacy for my argument?

Because your attempt to link the concepts you mentioned to the supernatural was a non sequitor. The topic was about observation of concepts that led to stable prosperous societies and unstable chaotic societies, not the supernatural. In addition, you made no references to any direct observations of how supernatural phenomena affects those concepts nor have you also proven the existence of those supernatural phenomena. So in order for your "God of the Gaps" fallacy to not be true, you have to:

(1) Prove the existence of supernatural phenomena by providing direct, observable evidence.
(2) Prove that the supernatural phenomena are caused by God because the claim that supernatural phenomena can occur without God is as valid as the claim that they can occur with God.
(3) Identify the specific phenomena that supposedly lead to the formation of the concepts that promote stable societies.
(4) Prove that there is a causal (correlation is not adequate enough) relationship between supernatural phenomena and those concepts.

However, considering that your arguments are solely reliant of the Proof By Assertion fallacy and do not fulfill the burden of proof, it is impossible for you to disprove my "God of the Gaps" fallacy claim.

 

you're missing the point... which is not necessarily that a god exists but that we can observe that certain behavioral patterns lead to prosperity and others lead to degeneration

we can observe this through repetition over and over again to see what works and what does not and that by extension is what we ironically call the scientific method

if something appears to work through repetition many times we call that a law

all i am saying is that this is similar to what has been done with concepts associated with a god

it has nothing to do with gaps in our understanding but its about what we can observe to produce favourable results again and again and again and again

 

as for proving the that the supernatural exists - 97 percent of the matter around us is invisible to our measuring methods...

 

100 years ago using radio waves for communication would've made you a witch.. you really think that in 100 years we won't uncover more hidden aspects of reality?

 

the only thing i've asserted btw is that some patterns of behavior are more favourable than others to both the individual and society and that we cannot have objective reality without the concept of god... your claims about me using a proof by assertion fallacy are hilariously ironic



o_O.Q said:
palou said:

If that is your answer, I do not see how god needs to be implied. Morality, its purposes and effects, have been discussed extensively by many great minds. (Bentham, Mills, Kant, Rawls...)

 

Game theory can turn optimizing human behaviour into mathematical equations. 

 

No religion needed. If you say it's a science, then leave it to scientists, with more complete procedures.

 

concepts of gods and stories have been used to facilitate consumption of these ideas by as wide a group of people as possible

...how do you do that with maths equations?

It's a whole mathematical field - nothing you can resume quickly. The offer/demand curve is an extremely basic example of its application. You look at situations with players with certain goals following certain rules and predict the outcome when they interact. These aren't really "equations", as one could decribe it, but it's most definitely math.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

as an atheist I can say quite honestly that I would love it if there was actually a god and we were all granted some form of afterlife. living without purpose bothers me, and disappearing after I die scares me. but science, logic, and reason have all made some pretty good cases towards god not being real.



palou said:
Arminillo said:

because god wouldve created morality. whatever one he has is probably pretty tip-top.

Which is written in the bible. Which he apparently, wrote. So basically, you have someone declaring his own morality to be the best.

 

Another thing I never undrstood: Even if you believe that god exists, how do you know that he is a force of good? Pretty much everyone would SAY that they are good, regardless of objective.

Well, it takes faith. Theres the easy answer.

But really, what point is there in god being evil. Religion has given an uncountable number of people hope and motivation throughout the centuries. Why would an evil god ask you to love your neighbor and say not to boast holiness over others?

"But why do people suffer, Arminillo?" Well why do people suffer and then become stronger than they couldve ever become without first being hurt? Why can people smile through tears? I think it is indicitive of a greatest love of all that we are able to do the wrong thing, when we know its the wrong thing, that we can harm others, yet still be forgiven and still be reformed. If God is real, then hope, salvation, and forgiveness prove that he is a loving one.



Muda Muda Muda Muda Muda Muda!!!!