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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Emulation - The Legalities, Ethics, Benefits and Drawbacks

SvennoJ on 01 May 2017
CladInShadows said:
SvennoJ said:

I applaud your efforts to do the right thing. The only reason I can give you, is that you support piracy by downloading roms. You add to the popularity of them, adding another download to the tally, justifying others to do the same. Others that might not own a legal copy.

To give an analogy. Over the years I have found that the best way to keep a publicly accessible space clean is not by putting up signs or bins etc, but by making sure it is clean in the first place. When people see other people do something, they'll more inclined to do it themselves. When they find it neat and tidy, they tend to want to keep it that way.  If I clean it straigh way in spring I maybe take out a small plastic bag of trash and it stays nice. Wait a few weeks and there's a garbage bag full of crap around. It multiplies!

By downloading the Rom you legitimize downloading said roms in the eyes of others. So yes, ethically there is a small difference. Which is also why using emulators for brand new games shouldn't be advertised. Monkey see, monkey does. That's the human race.

Yeah, that was the only reason I could think of as well.  But honestly that argument doesn't hold much weight with me. I just did a quick search for the Skyward Sword ISO, since I don't remember where I got it from.  None of the sites showed a download tally of any kind.  I'll admit I didn't spend much time looking, though.  So if we're talking about a download tally only visible to the owner of the site, then I suppose the owner would see an additional download from me.  So in some miniscule way, I have validated the pirate's existence. Though I doubt I was the "make or break" statistic for any of the Wii or Gamecube games I have downloaded.  PS1/PS2 games I always ripped on my own.  And I suppose you could also make the argument that I am indirectly supporting piracy by giving one more download for Rawdump, which is the program I use to rip my Wii games today.  But people are going to rip and pirate whether or not I download or rip games I have already paid for.  I'm a small non-existent drop in the bucket of the piracy world.

That's an argument everyone can make, until everyone does it and well you see where that is going. That's ofcourse the whole thing with piracy. As long as only a few people do it, it's not a problem. Encouraging more people to download roms, simply by the act of downloading roms, is tipping the scale ever so slightly. You can see, I'm not the make or break statistic, yet you're still just as responsible as all the other ones that are not the make or break statistic by themselves.

As another anolagy. Suppose you use public transport, have a monthly or yearly pass yet decide it's too much trouble to carry it along with you. Is it alright to jump the entry barrier at the station as you paid for it anyway? What about the kids seeing you 'legally' jump the barrier. And what does it hurt anyone if some people don't pay for public transport.

Anyway you probably are a non-existent drop as a legal owner who downloads the occasional copy of owned software. The effect on piracy is likely negligable. Ironically when more people do the 'right' thing, that effect gets bigger :/



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SvennoJ on 01 May 2017
Leadified said:
SvennoJ said:

VMWare is not promoted here.
VMWare is not shown to be running brand new games.
VMWare is not available for download bundled with pirated games.

Emulators are easier to make without using a virtual machine. No need to go through an extra hoop which would only slow things down. I can't really find anything about VMWare used for piracy, only VMWare getting pirated itself. Emulators however...

It's completely different. There is no outrage against DOSBox either, mini nes, virtual console, BC etc. Promoting or making a program available that actively encourages people to circumvent security measures and or download pirated versions of brand new software is where the line gets crossed.

You can use VMWare for piracy by downloading the operating systems off the internet, which is something I would wager that most people who use VMWare do. (Italics) Using VMWare you can run OSX (or previous Apple OSes) on a non-Apple computer, this is something which violates the EULA. DOSBox is used by companies to run some of their games but there is nothing preventing you from using pirated PC games on it either.

So I am unsure why you think there is a distinction here.

DOSBox doesn't run brand new games, plus DOSBox doesn't circumvent security measures.  If console emulators truly emulated the console they would require the game disc in the drive or the user to be signed into an account with the digital license.

If VMWare is used to run pirated versions of OS X then yes that's bad as well. I wasn't aware of this, but it seems Apple has asked VMWare to detect and deny running OS X. Which ofcourse can be hacked out again, seems it's called VMWare unlocker. But there's the difference with a legal emulator, they seem to be working with Apple to come to a solution to try to contain the problem.



CladInShadows on 01 May 2017
SvennoJ said:
CladInShadows said:

Yeah, that was the only reason I could think of as well.  But honestly that argument doesn't hold much weight with me. I just did a quick search for the Skyward Sword ISO, since I don't remember where I got it from.  None of the sites showed a download tally of any kind.  I'll admit I didn't spend much time looking, though.  So if we're talking about a download tally only visible to the owner of the site, then I suppose the owner would see an additional download from me.  So in some miniscule way, I have validated the pirate's existence. Though I doubt I was the "make or break" statistic for any of the Wii or Gamecube games I have downloaded.  PS1/PS2 games I always ripped on my own.  And I suppose you could also make the argument that I am indirectly supporting piracy by giving one more download for Rawdump, which is the program I use to rip my Wii games today.  But people are going to rip and pirate whether or not I download or rip games I have already paid for.  I'm a small non-existent drop in the bucket of the piracy world.

That's an argument everyone can make, until everyone does it and well you see where that is going. That's ofcourse the whole thing with piracy. As long as only a few people do it, it's not a problem. Encouraging more people to download roms, simply by the act of downloading roms, is tipping the scale ever so slightly. You can see, I'm not the make or break statistic, yet you're still just as responsible as all the other ones that are not the make or break statistic by themselves.

As another anolagy. Suppose you use public transport, have a monthly or yearly pass yet decide it's too much trouble to carry it along with you. Is it alright to jump the entry barrier at the station as you paid for it anyway? What about the kids seeing you 'legally' jump the barrier. And what does it hurt anyone if some people don't pay for public transport.

Anyway you probably are a non-existent drop as a legal owner who downloads the occasional copy of owned software. The effect on piracy is likely negligable. Ironically when more people do the 'right' thing, that effect gets bigger :/

I feel I can make the argument with a little more weight behind it because I'm not actually getting something I didn't pay for. If all I'm doing is giving the impression that piracy is 0.0001% more prominent than it is, then I can sleep at night with that on my conscience.

I think your analogy is placing a much greater weight on my action than is the reality of downloading an ISO. IF there is a download counter (and I'm having a hard time finding any that are visible to the public), then I'm raising it by 1 when there's thousands or 10s of thousands or even 100s of thousands of downloads already occurring. The "damage" you talk about is already done. And it's indirect damage. It's a singular count on a site that is really only going to be accessed by people that are already familiar with (and are considering) piracy. My 1 download isn't doing anything. You can make it into something larger than it is and try and spin it a different way, but it isn't harming the industry.



SvennoJ on 01 May 2017
CladInShadows said:

I feel I can make the argument with a little more weight behind it because I'm not actually getting something I didn't pay for. If all I'm doing is giving the impression that piracy is 0.0001% more prominent than it is, then I can sleep at night with that on my conscience.

I think your analogy is placing a much greater weight on my action than is the reality of downloading an ISO. IF there is a download counter (and I'm having a hard time finding any that are visible to the public), then I'm raising it by 1 when there's thousands or 10s of thousands or even 100s of thousands of downloads already occurring. The "damage" you talk about is already done. And it's indirect damage. It's a singular count on a site that is really only going to be accessed by people that are already familiar with (and are considering) piracy. My 1 download isn't doing anything. You can make it into something larger than it is and try and spin it a different way, but it isn't harming the industry.

True.

But I'm not placing greater weight on your action, just saying that the weight is equal to anyone else donwloading an ISO. Every single one is minor and insignificant on its own. Just semantiscs. Nothing to lose sleep over :)


Actually that bittorrent with the counter I ran into was from a Reddit, now taking a closer look at it I'm amazed at the hypocrisy. Apparently Cemu has DRM build in and you only get access to Botw if you're a patron. Which can be circumvented by running it off-line which reduces the speed the emulator runs at. I'm not making this shit up:

Hi, when I try to launch the emulator, it appears for a millisecond then it disappears. Now it just doesn't launch at all. What can I do? EDIT: Just fixed my problem. version 1.7.3d downloaded from this subreddit didn't work as it requires a serial number given to the patrons of the patreon page.

Is it running for you now? If so what processes did you do?

Ah, I had to download the official public version from the website unfortunately.

Quick way to get around the DRM built into CEMU--disable your internet while you're booting it up so it can't dial home, BUT be aware when you do that, CEMU runs in 'slow' mode. It dipped MK8 to around 35-40fps, when I can run it at 60FPS otherwise. I'm on a 4670k @ 4.4GHz, GTX 1080, 16GB RAM.

I have the same problem. Your 1.7.3d version does not work. <> must have got cemu 1.7.3d to run by getting it from the patreon page. 1.7.2 is what's available to non-patreon users and it doesn't run BotW or support the type of update you need to use if you have a .wud for the game.

What a bunch of hypocrits.



Safiir on 01 May 2017
SvennoJ said:
Safiir said:
I've already said my opinion on the matter and how much I disagree with SvennoJ (I'm singling you out because you seem to be making the most coherent arguments against emulation :) ) but would like to point out that emulation is not limited only to game consoles. For example VMware is used in a lot of IT companies in order to create multiple virtual machines on a single server. Completely official and legal. Could it be used in order to run pirate software? Absolutely! Does it have any safeguards in order to assure pirated software cannot be used? Not a single one! Why isn't there outrage against it?

VMWare is not promoted here.
VMWare is not shown to be running brand new games.
VMWare is not available for download bundled with pirated games.

Emulators are easier to make without using a virtual machine. No need to go through an extra hoop which would only slow things down. I can't really find anything about VMWare used for piracy, only VMWare getting pirated itself. Emulators however...

It's completely different. There is no outrage against DOSBox either, mini nes, virtual console, BC etc. Promoting or making a program available that actively encourages people to circumvent security measures and or download pirated versions of brand new software is where the line gets crossed.

VMware IS an emulator. And yes, it can be used to run brand new software. Same with bluestacks or any other other emulator of a current hardware. Not to mention you're constantly saying "brand new games" as if there's anything more than a badly running ONE game, and it's running on an emulator of a 5 years old hardware. Not to mention that the emulator is not encouraging people to pirate in any shape or form. If you want - you can. Nothing's stopping you. But that's true for every single emulator (again vmware included) in existance.



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Leadified on 01 May 2017
SvennoJ said:
Leadified said:

You can use VMWare for piracy by downloading the operating systems off the internet, which is something I would wager that most people who use VMWare do. (Italics) Using VMWare you can run OSX (or previous Apple OSes) on a non-Apple computer, this is something which violates the EULA. DOSBox is used by companies to run some of their games but there is nothing preventing you from using pirated PC games on it either.

So I am unsure why you think there is a distinction here.

DOSBox doesn't run brand new games, plus DOSBox doesn't circumvent security measures.  If console emulators truly emulated the console they would require the game disc in the drive or the user to be signed into an account with the digital license.

If VMWare is used to run pirated versions of OS X then yes that's bad as well. I wasn't aware of this, but it seems Apple has asked VMWare to detect and deny running OS X. Which ofcourse can be hacked out again, seems it's called VMWare unlocker. But there's the difference with a legal emulator, they seem to be working with Apple to come to a solution to try to contain the problem.

Which security measures are you referring to and how are they circumvented? An emulator is not meant to be a hardware reproduction, although you have some emulators that accept physical media.

It blocks you out from running OSX without a bypass (on non-Apple machines) but does not block you from using a pirated version of the OS.



WagnerPaiva on 01 May 2017

I emulated a bunch of Master System, SNES, NES and Genesis games in january, at my vacation. Only played each one for a couple of hours, do not know if this is the real way to make it leagl, but deleted after 24 hours, as a friend told me is the right way to do it.
It is amazing how many great games are lost in time because the hardware is obsolete. The PS3 was a great way to keep PS1 games alive, but I do not own a PS3 anymore.
I don´t know, life is short, there are other stuff we have to do, how much time one really has to play games, right?
It is like collecting stuff: I think life is too short to collect anything, it´s pointless. If I have no use for something, I give it away.
Sometimes I wish I had it again, but it vanishes really fast.
Emulation is a way to realize you do not really want or need something...



My grammar errors are justified by the fact that I am a brazilian living in Brazil. I am also very stupid.

Pemalite on 01 May 2017
VGPolyglot said:
Bandorr said:
I think the thread is confusing two notes.

It isn't about "emulation" through official means. Xbox 360 games on the xb1 requires the consent of Microsoft and the makers of those games.

Where as CEMU/RSP3(I think I got that right) is none of that. They aren't getting the companies approval. They aren't getting the games approval. They are making money (CEMU making somewhere around 40k a month) bringing games from one system to another without consent from anyone.

Bleem and VGS were commercial emulators. Sony sued them. They lost. So, commercial emulators are allowed. That's not the grey area. The Grey area are the BIOS and the games.

In regards to the BIOS it's perfectly legal to reverse engineer/emulate the BIOS. What is the grey area is taking a console and dumping said BIOS.

Bandorr said:

Interesting, yet I don't see how that addresses any of my points?

He cleared up your emulators making money and not getting the approval point. A reply doesn't have to address every point you make. :P

Bandorr said:

My point was that the thread needs to make a clear point to the thread. No one is against "company endorsed emulation" like xbox 360 to xb1.

There is no grey area or morality involved in xbox decideding to implement xbox games on their xbox.

The thread is about the legalities, ethics, benefits, drawbacks of Emulation.

VGPolyglot said:
Super_Boom said:

Of course, when it comes to piracy or illegal forms of emulation, I would be completely behind more severe moderation, depending on the offense, as I find it absolutely shameful that scum that don't contribute to the developers that sweated over these games are pretending to have the same hobby as those of us who do.

Well, the vast majority of games that I get are used/second-hand, so most of the time I don't contribute to the developers. Am I wrong for assuming that I have the same hobby as those who buy new copies to give money back to the developers?

Exactly. Developers and Publishers are NOT entitled to your money. They cannot force you to hand your money over.
Otherwise the second hand market, key resellers, renting, loaning/sharing etc' would all be illegal.

Developers need to provide incentives for you to buy/rebuy the game.
Multiplayer services are a massive leverage in that aspect, often that cannot be emulated and most certainly will never have the same population levels to make said service worthwhile.

Green098 said:

But the copy of the game you bought of someone else still had money contributed to the developer by the original's owner who purchased it.

Piracy is just steal the title yourself for free.

And one other obvious difference one is illegal one is not.

But the point you make (playing the game with the money going to someone else and not the developers) is also one for why I'm against the idea of renting games.

 
And to duplicate a copy of a game, someone needs to have purchased an original copy which resulted in money being contributed to the developer, it's not as different as you think. ;)

Piracy is illegal though. I'm not condoning it.
But there are ways for developers to minimize piracy that isn't intrusive DRM, lawsuits etc'. - They have been proven not to work anyway.

SvennoJ said:

VMWare is not promoted here.
VMWare is not shown to be running brand new games.
VMWare is not available for download bundled with pirated games.


Virtual Machines and Emulation aren't as different as you think.
Many Virtual Machines emulate various pieces of hardware.

Virtual Machines can run brand new pirated games.
In-fact, nVidia has Virtual GPU Passthrough to allow said games to work. - http://www.nvidia.com/object/dedicated-gpus.html

Virtual Machines can be bundled with anything you want.


Green098 said:

Well just like with what happened to DVDs, it might just die out in time due to a shift to digital. Even now renting games and etc. was a much bigger thing years ago than now so we're all aleady within that process.

Game developers could always even one day rent games digitally one day in the future themselves, or like netflix become part of a subscription service.

Digital isn't an answer to avoiding emulation. They will just dump the digital copies eventually anyway.

Wii Emulation is so accurate that you can buy the games directly from the Wii Store.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-03-17-wii-emulator-is-so-accurate-you-can-buy-games-from-the-wii-shop-channel

SvennoJ said:

DOSBox doesn't run brand new games, plus DOSBox doesn't circumvent security measures.  If console emulators truly emulated the console they would require the game disc in the drive or the user to be signed into an account with the digital license.

False. Games are still being Made for DOS and thus DOSBox. The Homebrew and indie scene is alive and well.

Plus Gog.com will often repackage allot of older games with DOSBox and sell them to you that way.

Plus because Gog.com games are DRM free, they are ripe for people to copy.

Also, some emulators do support playing a game directly from the optical Disk.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

vivster on 02 May 2017

I don't support guns because 99% of the time they're used to kill things. Screw people who pretend to use them for sports.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

SvennoJ on 02 May 2017
Pemalite said:
SvennoJ said:

VMWare is not promoted here.
VMWare is not shown to be running brand new games.
VMWare is not available for download bundled with pirated games.


Virtual Machines and Emulation aren't as different as you think.
Many Virtual Machines emulate various pieces of hardware.

Virtual Machines can run brand new pirated games.
In-fact, nVidia has Virtual GPU Passthrough to allow said games to work. - http://www.nvidia.com/object/dedicated-gpus.html

Virtual Machines can be bundled with anything you want.


SvennoJ said:

DOSBox doesn't run brand new games, plus DOSBox doesn't circumvent security measures.  If console emulators truly emulated the console they would require the game disc in the drive or the user to be signed into an account with the digital license.

False. Games are still being Made for DOS and thus DOSBox. The Homebrew and indie scene is alive and well.

Plus Gog.com will often repackage allot of older games with DOSBox and sell them to you that way.

Plus because Gog.com games are DRM free, they are ripe for people to copy.

Also, some emulators do support playing a game directly from the optical Disk.

Well, when I see threads promoting HZD running in a virtual machine on hardware it was not intended to run on, I'll be in that thread :p Same for DOSBox in that case. Yet DOSBox really isn't the same thing as nobody is selling DOS games to run solely on original DOS machines.

I just find it shameful that Cemu 'trusts' their users not to use pirated software, yet apparently doesn't trust them with their own software, so they add DRM to basically sell the full emulator to patrons. At least VMWare locks out OSX and maybe other things.