By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Man violently removed from United Airlines plane. ~Update~ United may have broken the law.

VGPolyglot said:
Imaginedvl said:

Man either you are doing this on purpose or you really don't get it... 

Right or not... Airport authorities != United Airline...
Finally, you comply to the authorities asking you to de-plane. Even if it is because they do like the color of your socks... You just do it and then you can fill a complain and win millions...

But you said it again, you do not think cooperating with authorities is a normal. I guess speed limits are just a recommendation for you and you feel in your right because you car speed meter goes up to 300 km/h after all, you have the right to.

 

Being complacent allows them to do things like this in the first place. If everyone stood up to them, they wouldn't get away with it. You're talking about suing based on the assumption that everyone can afford to sue: guess what, most people can't afford thousands and thousands of dollars to go to court.

That's not the point tho. In the street I would agree with you. But this in airplane where security and disturbence is really something very important.
And I said sue as an exemple, filling a complain, w/e... Eveybody can do that yes. Your trust in the system is very limited :) 



Around the Network
Imaginedvl said:
VGPolyglot said:

Being complacent allows them to do things like this in the first place. If everyone stood up to them, they wouldn't get away with it. You're talking about suing based on the assumption that everyone can afford to sue: guess what, most people can't afford thousands and thousands of dollars to go to court.

That's not the point tho. In the street I would agree with you. But this in airplane where security and disturbence is really something very important.
And I said sue as an exemple, filling a complain, w/e... Eveybody can do that yes. Your trust in the system is very limited :) 

Of course my trust in the system is limited, with all of the shit that happens I don't know anyone would.



...Why does US still keeps constitutions around if they don't care?



Kagerow said:
...Why does US still keeps constitutions around if they don't care?

To make it seem like they care.



Hiku said:

~Update~

The Young Turks read through United's guidelines, and found no reference about forceable removal. They mention that you can be refunded, or have your ticket canceled (which sounds like steps that should be taken before letting the passanger unto the plane) but nothing about being dragged out if you refuse.
They're going to look into this further, but this means that United may have even broken the law.

~Update 2~
One of the security officers has been suspended following this incident.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4396986/Passengers-film-moment-police-drag-man-United-plane.html

Doesn't necessarily mean the law has been broken. The plane is private property, and when the owner of the property is legally able to demand that you leave then there is likely to be a legal defence of reasonable use of force in what amounts to trespass. 

If someone can assert the right to shoot and kill someone for stepping on their property without permission, then surely non-lethal forceable removal from private property is likely to be defencible in court.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Around the Network
Kagerow said:
...Why does US still keeps constitutions around if they don't care?

In this case the constitution is likely to be on the side of United. Protection of private property rights. When you are on private property your constitutional rights are somewhat reduced.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

binary solo said:
Hiku said:

~Update~

The Young Turks read through United's guidelines, and found no reference about forceable removal. They mention that you can be refunded, or have your ticket canceled (which sounds like steps that should be taken before letting the passanger unto the plane) but nothing about being dragged out if you refuse.
They're going to look into this further, but this means that United may have even broken the law.

~Update 2~
One of the security officers has been suspended following this incident.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4396986/Passengers-film-moment-police-drag-man-United-plane.html

Doesn't necessarily mean the law has been broken. The plane is private property, and when the owner of the property is legally able to demand that you leave then there is likely to be a legal defence of reasonable use of force in what amounts to trespass. 

If someone can assert the right to shoot and kill someone for stepping on their property without permission, then surely non-lethal forceable removal from private property is likely to be defencible in court.

So, if someone pays rent to live in an apartment, you think that the landlord should be allowed to force him out to let one of his buddies stay, getting the police to beat him up and drag him out?



VGPolyglot said:
binary solo said:

Doesn't necessarily mean the law has been broken. The plane is private property, and when the owner of the property is legally able to demand that you leave then there is likely to be a legal defence of reasonable use of force in what amounts to trespass. 

If someone can assert the right to shoot and kill someone for stepping on their property without permission, then surely non-lethal forceable removal from private property is likely to be defencible in court.

So, if someone pays rent to live in an apartment, you think that the landlord should be allowed to force him out to let one of his buddies stay, getting the police to beat him up and drag him out?

Depends on the terms of the rental agreement obviously. You'd be kinda dumb to sign such a rental agreement, but if you were domb enough to sign it with that sort of condition, then yeah, the landlord would have a defence for forcibly removing you if they have a lawful basis for demanding your departure.

That's how contracts work, you abide by the terms of the contract or you suffer the consequences. If the terms of the United ticket, which represents a contract for service, says that you can be bumped at any time for specified reasons then you are bound by that contract and United is entitled to enforce it. And if necessary to vacate you from their private property possibly be legally justified in using physical force.

And don;t equate United employees with "buddies". They are employed under contract too, which both the employee and United are obliged to comply, and that will include getting them to where they are required to be to do their job. Or to be delivered back to their home after ending their shift under specific terms. Are you wanting to prefer the passenger's rights over the rights of the conditions for the United workers? 

Should United be a lot more organised in managing passenger and staff logitics? No doubt. But that doesn't change the probably lawful rights United has given itself in tickets.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Azuren said:
Hiku said:

Incorrect. If they had chainsawed him out of the seat, they'd be in jail for excessive force, manslaughter, etc.

the line stops when the person is 1) not comploying with authorities (wrongly or not) and then resisting, simple as that. There are only one way to remove him from the plane; pull him and drag him...

Two ways. Bash his skull in on an armrest.

And again they did not bash his skull, HE did but actively resisting and then hurting himself...

And again, they did as well. Cops can get convicted with excessive force, or gross negligence, even if that situation happened because a suspect resisted and they had a right to detain them. Going back to the line I'm talking about that you pretend doesn't exist. If this man was a danger to others, and there was a sense of urgency, then it's a different story. But this was just a guy who wouldn't get off his seat.
The way they handled this man was incompetent to say the least.

You ignored it but my analogy (somewhat extrem) with a dude pulling a gun on a cop and then being shot is the same...

Because it was a horribly bad analogy.

If the man had attempted to, or threatened to, put the cops in a situation where their heads would get bashed in on an armrest, then and only then would your analogy be valid about them "shooting because they were scared of getting shot". But that's not the case here. He didn't threaten to do to them what was done to him. They weren't "afraid of getting their heads bashed in on an armrest, so they did it to him first."

Horrible analogy.

The cops aren't at fault. They were called in to deal with something flight related, which has serious implications. If you resist, you can expect force in return. 

I think the cops are at fault, not because of what they did but how they did it. Needing to use excessive force on an old man to remove him from a seat shows that these guys are a bunch of incompetent buffons, buffons who are (likely) going to cost the company a lot of money and that old man a bunch of blood. (I mean, I get that shit happens and that things can get frustrating, but c'mon, he was just an old guy, taking a hold of him shouldn't be that difficult for TRAINED PROFESSIONALS, right?)

Also, if anyone is at fault here is the airline, for failing to plan ahead and allowing this shit to go through. Unless the 4 employees thing was a last-second thing in which case; well, I think a better way to resolve that would've been to look for a flight that wasn't already full, I doubt that they needed to get a fly that urgently, but in the case that they did, why not raise the compensation? Instead of $800 do $1000, that fails? Raise it the most you realistically can and THEN you can start using force. Makes sense right? Too much of a delay on the flight? Tough shit, you brought it upon yourself by not planing ahead (This also includes making a bunch of extra seats for such an ocassion).



I'm now filled with determination.

binary solo said:
VGPolyglot said:

So, if someone pays rent to live in an apartment, you think that the landlord should be allowed to force him out to let one of his buddies stay, getting the police to beat him up and drag him out?

Depends on the terms of the rental agreement obviously. You'd be kinda dumb to sign such a rental agreement, but if you were domb enough to sign it with that sort of condition, then yeah, the landlord would have a defence for forcibly removing you if they have a lawful basis for demanding your departure.

That's how contracts work, you abide by the terms of the contract or you suffer the consequences. If the terms of the United ticket, which represents a contract for service, says that you can be bumped at any time for specified reasons then you are bound by that contract and United is entitled to enforce it. And if necessary to vacate you from their private property possibly be legally justified in using physical force.

And don;t equate United employees with "buddies". They are employed under contract too, which both the employee and United are obliged to comply, and that will include getting them to where they are required to be to do their job. Or to be delivered back to their home after ending their shift under specific terms. Are you wanting to prefer the passenger's rights over the rights of the conditions for the United workers? 

Should United be a lot more organised in managing passenger and staff logitics? No doubt. But that doesn't change the probably lawful rights United has given itself in tickets.

What you can draw up in contracts is also bound by rules. The same goes for using reasonable force. Otherwise it would be ok for Nintendo to call the swat team on anyone playing botw on Cemu.

We've gone over this before in this thread, no where in the contract of carriage from United does it state that you can be removed from the plane in case an employee needs the seat. The rules for overbooking are all about being denied boarding. As well as the official regulations regarding overbooking. The only rules after boarding are safety/disturbance related.

So it seems the airline called airport security under false pretenses to intimidate the guy into leaving. The guy called their bluff and instead of airport security trying to mediate, they decided to use force. There was no security issue, no disturbance until security started pulling on him. It also seems they never charged him with anything, didn't arrest him, so using force was unjustified. There was no trespassing charge.

After all that, it most likely was unreasonable force as well.
https://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/pages/welcome.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_v._Connor
The question is were they trying to arrest him and was he thus actively resisting arrest. Or were they simply impatient and decided to drag him out.