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Forums - Politics - FBI Released Proof of Russian DNC Hacking - US expels 35 Russian diplomats & Sanctioned Two Compounds

Sharu said:
Soundwave said:

It's a "bold statement"? What year is it? 1853?

Darwin in his works never said that apes are human's ancestors. Thats just oversimplistic re-saying of his THEORY. Which is still a theory, and not proven scientifically.

OK, great, so we're special snowflakes that a perfect space daddy made us all special and unique because he loves us sooooo much. 

Either way, we're still fucking morons by and large unfortuantely. Human history shows pretty repeatedly what happens when there are two "superpowers" that are about evenly matched. 



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Soundwave said:
Sharu said:

Darwin in his works never said that apes are human's ancestors. Thats just oversimplistic re-saying of his THEORY. Which is still a theory, and not proven scientifically.

OK, great, so we're special snowflakes that a perfect space daddy made us all special and unique because he loves us sooooo much. 

Either way, we're still fucking morons by and large unfortuantely. Human history shows pretty repeatedly what happens when there are two "superpowers" that are about evenly matched. 

Go read some books. Before saying bold words on forums.



Sharu said:
Soundwave said:

OK, great, so we're special snowflakes that a perfect space daddy made us all special and unique because he loves us sooooo much. 

Either way, we're still fucking morons by and large unfortuantely. Human history shows pretty repeatedly what happens when there are two "superpowers" that are about evenly matched. 

Go read some books. Before saying bold words on forums.

Point remains. Show me a period in human history where two divergent "superpowers" co-exised peacefully like two teenage girls at a Jusin Bieber concert. It doesn't happen. That's not human nature, it might be individually, but we are bunch of fucking idiots when you pair us up into large enough tribal groups. 

We're a violent species. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. So excuse me if I'm skeptical of this dual superpower "utopia" where we all just hold hands. Don't see it happening. The 90s/2000s aren't without their problems, but they're a hell of a lot safer in the grand scheme of things than the 60s/70s/80s, and then you have the gong show of the 10s/20s/30s/40s with the two World Wars. We really only avoided World War III (Cuban Missle Crisis) by dumb luck, a brave Russian sub operator disregarded an order to fire on a US ship during the Cuban Missle Crisis, if he hadn't done that the chain reaction would've been stunning, nuclear war was pretty much a gaurunteed certainty. 



"proof"

http://arstechnica.co.uk/security/2016/12/did-russia-tamper-with-the-2016-election-bitter-debate-likely-to-rage-on/



Soundwave said:
DrDoomz said:

I don't see it the same way you do. The Saudis don't need to finance Islamic terrorism to keep the clerics happy.

I see humans differently as you. I see them being able to learn from their mistakes/history. Only the insane would annihilate themselves along with their enemies (kinda like what happens due to religious zealotry or North Korea). And right now we (the world) knows enough to not hold nuclear annihilation as a viabl option for settling fights that can be settled via economic/influential means.

Even in economics 101, we know monopolies are a bad thing. So how come you think it is ok in the geoplotical arena?

Do we really learn from our past mistakes? I'm not so sure. Partially because we aren't one monolith generation, people die, new people show up, new people don't give a fuck what happened 50-100 years ago. You have to have faith that each generation is successively smarter than past generations, and I'm not sure if that is realistically true. 

Nationalism is actually the most dangerous force we are just too stupid as a species, when there are two "superpowers" it always ends in some kind of conflict. Human history shows this to be virtually true ... every ... single ... time. 

If you have two friends that come over and every time they come over to your house they get drunk and then either get in a fight or end up trashing your house, at what point do you say "you know maybe this isn't a good idea". 

Unforutnately in human nature the concept of "you know I got enough power. I don't need any more" doesn't really work so great in actuality. Once 1 party tastes enough power, eventually the thinking becomes "well why the fuck does that other guy have more power than me? Something needs to be done" and then the predictable path to some kind of violent conforntation begins. 

We're just evolved apes. Don't forget that. Not only that, but I don't even think we're particularily far along in our evolutionary process, I'd liken the human species to like a child that's 12-13 years old ... they think they know the world and they certainly are more evolved than they were at 5 years old, but they're also extremely childish and stupid. 

To be honest in a military conflict, Islamic Exremist "forces" like ISIS if they had to actually match up one on one versus a *real* actual army would get their asses handed to them and blown clear off the planet in a weekend. They have no air force, no anti-aircraft, like 5 stolen tanks, like I said their overall numbers are smaller than the size of the Ethipoian army. Terrorism is a way for them to (as the name implies) create "terror" and make people think they are stronger than what they are. 

History is a collective wisdom available to each succeeding generation. Technological advancement has made information widespread and available. There are many wrong notions we have managed to leave behind. Slavery is one such example. You don't have to have faith that humans grow and get better from lessons learned in the past. It is visibly evident.

You mean the same nationalism that lets us believe that we should be on top and no one else should come close? Yeah, I agree.

And wars are also fought when one nation dominates the rest to expand its territory. Wars are fought when there are many smaller powers fighting over who can be on top. Maybe its not the number of dominant powers that's the cause here, don't you think?

As with in economies: Larger companies will always want more power/wealth. Smaller companies will try to eke out what they can but will fight to get whatever it can. Competing companies who want a piece of what the market leader's got will find ways to chip at the market leader's dominance. The threat of competition keeps the market leader learning and improving its technology and offerings. It is good for the market. So no, I don't share your "trust us, we are the only world power you want to absolutely dominate the world" belief.

You're right. ISIl is a tiny insignificant problem that any real army can wipe out in a weekend. Yet here they still are claiming responsibility for killing first world citizens left and right. Maybe the outroar should be on why they're still there and not on Russia who didn't even claim responsibility for hacking and releasing information that may not even have been relevant in maybe determining the outcome of an election.



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DrDoomz said:
Soundwave said:

Do we really learn from our past mistakes? I'm not so sure. Partially because we aren't one monolith generation, people die, new people show up, new people don't give a fuck what happened 50-100 years ago. You have to have faith that each generation is successively smarter than past generations, and I'm not sure if that is realistically true. 

Nationalism is actually the most dangerous force we are just too stupid as a species, when there are two "superpowers" it always ends in some kind of conflict. Human history shows this to be virtually true ... every ... single ... time. 

If you have two friends that come over and every time they come over to your house they get drunk and then either get in a fight or end up trashing your house, at what point do you say "you know maybe this isn't a good idea". 

Unforutnately in human nature the concept of "you know I got enough power. I don't need any more" doesn't really work so great in actuality. Once 1 party tastes enough power, eventually the thinking becomes "well why the fuck does that other guy have more power than me? Something needs to be done" and then the predictable path to some kind of violent conforntation begins. 

We're just evolved apes. Don't forget that. Not only that, but I don't even think we're particularily far along in our evolutionary process, I'd liken the human species to like a child that's 12-13 years old ... they think they know the world and they certainly are more evolved than they were at 5 years old, but they're also extremely childish and stupid. 

To be honest in a military conflict, Islamic Exremist "forces" like ISIS if they had to actually match up one on one versus a *real* actual army would get their asses handed to them and blown clear off the planet in a weekend. They have no air force, no anti-aircraft, like 5 stolen tanks, like I said their overall numbers are smaller than the size of the Ethipoian army. Terrorism is a way for them to (as the name implies) create "terror" and make people think they are stronger than what they are. 

History is a collective wisdom available to each succeeding generation. Technological advancement has made information widespread and available. There are many wrong notions we have managed to leave behind. Slavery is one such example. You don't have to have faith that humans grow and get better from lessons learned in the past. It is visibly evident.

You mean the same nationalism that lets us believe that we should be on top and no one else should come close? Yeah, I agree.

And wars are also fought when one nation dominates the rest to expand its territory. Wars are fought when there are many smaller powers fighting over who can be on top. Maybe its not the number of dominant powers that's the cause here, don't you think?

As with in economies: Larger companies will always want more power/wealth. Smaller companies will try to eke out what they can but will fight to get whatever it can. Competing companies who want a piece of what the market leader's got will find ways to chip at the market leader's dominance. The threat of competition keeps the market leader learning and improving its technology and offerings. It is good for the market. So no, I don't share your "trust us, we are the only world power you want to absolutely dominate the world" belief.

You're right. ISIl is a tiny insignificant problem that any real army can wipe out in a weekend. Yet here they still are claiming responsibility for killing first world citizens left and right. Maybe the outroar should be on why they're still there and not on Russia who didn't even claim responsibility for hacking and releasing information that may not even have been relevant in maybe determining the outcome of an election.

Our ability to avoid wars is not visibily evident though. On top of our usual bullshit and random killing we've had two full blown World Wars and a third nuclear World War was only avoided really by luck. That's basically three World Wars in a period of 50 years. How many times do you have to bang your head against a wall before you realize it's not such a good idea? Several times apparently in our case. 

Yes you will still have wars with only one superpower, but the casualities and death tolls are miniscule compared to full blown conflicts between "evenly matched" nation states. The Iraq War, which was awful had somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million casualities, World War II had over 60-80 million casualities and it likely would have been triple or quadraple that if they had today's more modern weapons (even putting nukes to the side). 



Soundwave said:
DrDoomz said:

History is a collective wisdom available to each succeeding generation. Technological advancement has made information widespread and available. There are many wrong notions we have managed to leave behind. Slavery is one such example. You don't have to have faith that humans grow and get better from lessons learned in the past. It is visibly evident.

You mean the same nationalism that lets us believe that we should be on top and no one else should come close? Yeah, I agree.

And wars are also fought when one nation dominates the rest to expand its territory. Wars are fought when there are many smaller powers fighting over who can be on top. Maybe its not the number of dominant powers that's the cause here, don't you think?

As with in economies: Larger companies will always want more power/wealth. Smaller companies will try to eke out what they can but will fight to get whatever it can. Competing companies who want a piece of what the market leader's got will find ways to chip at the market leader's dominance. The threat of competition keeps the market leader learning and improving its technology and offerings. It is good for the market. So no, I don't share your "trust us, we are the only world power you want to absolutely dominate the world" belief.

You're right. ISIl is a tiny insignificant problem that any real army can wipe out in a weekend. Yet here they still are claiming responsibility for killing first world citizens left and right. Maybe the outroar should be on why they're still there and not on Russia who didn't even claim responsibility for hacking and releasing information that may not even have been relevant in maybe determining the outcome of an election.

Our ability to avoid wars is not visibily evident though. On top of our usual bullshit and random killing we've had two full blown World Wars and a third nuclear World War was only avoided really by luck. That's basically three World Wars in a period of 50 years. How many times do you have to bang your head against a wall before you realize it's not such a good idea? Several times apparently in our case. 

Yes you will still have wars with only one superpower, but the casualities and death tolls are miniscule compared to full blown conflicts between "evenly matched" nation states. The Iraq War, which was awful had somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million casualities, World War II had over 60-80 million casualities and it likely would have been triple or quadraple that if they had today's more modern weapons (even putting nukes to the side). 

The fact that we actually did avoid a third world war (even if it was just by luck as you say) seems to prove you wrong.

WW2 wasn't 2 evenly matched Superpowers. More like several powers jockeying for top position (instigated by one). With the US and Russia coming out on top. So how do you figure the 2 power scenario being an inevitable cause for war?



DrDoomz said:
Soundwave said:

Our ability to avoid wars is not visibily evident though. On top of our usual bullshit and random killing we've had two full blown World Wars and a third nuclear World War was only avoided really by luck. That's basically three World Wars in a period of 50 years. How many times do you have to bang your head against a wall before you realize it's not such a good idea? Several times apparently in our case. 

Yes you will still have wars with only one superpower, but the casualities and death tolls are miniscule compared to full blown conflicts between "evenly matched" nation states. The Iraq War, which was awful had somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million casualities, World War II had over 60-80 million casualities and it likely would have been triple or quadraple that if they had today's more modern weapons (even putting nukes to the side). 

The fact that we actually did avoid a third world war (even if it was just by luck as you say) seems to prove you wrong.

WW2 wasn't 2 evenly matched Superpowers. More like several powers jockeying for top position (instigated by one). With the US and Russia coming out on top. So how do you figure the 2 power scenario being an inevitable cause for war?

If you actually read up on the Cuban Missle Crisis it's frightening how much of war being avoiding was simply dumb luck. A bounce the wrong way and it was over and the chain reaction is stunningly frightening, for example not only was Russia going to get hit with an immediate nuclear strike, but Europe was (via Russia), but even beyond that China was slated to actually be attacked first, because the US knew in an all out war, they had to neuralize communist China as well, so they were actually on the dockett first. 

The death toll would've been enormous. 

And you said it yourself. WW2 shows you what happens when you have 3-4 different countries in a dick waving contest and how it took humanity straight down the toilet to our most shameful moments. 

Look at history, show me where evenly mached divergent super power nation states have been able to avoid war, every chapter of human history says that's not true. 

Three World Wars in a span of 100 hundred year is nothing short of an embarrassment either. It's like saying you got into three drunk driving accidents, and the last time you almost killed someone, but now you feel OK about driving again. Like sorry if I don't trust that person for shit. They don't deserve to be trusted. 



Soundwave said:
Sharu said:

Go read some books. Before saying bold words on forums.

Point remains. Show me a period in human history where two divergent "superpowers" co-exised peacefully like two teenage girls at a Jusin Bieber concert. It doesn't happen. That's not human nature, it might be individually, but we are bunch of fucking idiots when you pair us up into large enough tribal groups. 

Even now we have at least 3 superpowers. USA, China and Russia. EU could be one to if it had a pair of balls. Even during cold war actual balance was more difficut then USSR vs USA, with a lot of alliances with its politics inside. (WW1 and 2 also was a war of alliances, not solid powers.)



Sharu said:
Soundwave said:

Point remains. Show me a period in human history where two divergent "superpowers" co-exised peacefully like two teenage girls at a Jusin Bieber concert. It doesn't happen. That's not human nature, it might be individually, but we are bunch of fucking idiots when you pair us up into large enough tribal groups. 

Even now we have at least 3 superpowers. USA, China and Russia. EU could be one to if it had a pair of balls. Even during cold war actual balance was more difficut then USSR vs USA, with a lot of alliances with its politics inside. (WW1 and 2 also was a war of alliances, not solid powers.)

We have 3, but one is clearly well above the other 2, which keeps a pecking order where all three know their place. It's not perfect by any means, but given the history of the last 100 years, it's a hell of a lot better than what was going on 50-60-70 years ago.