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Forums - Gaming - Gears on blu ray

totalwar23 said:
^^All he'd said was that one DVD-DL isn't enough. So why can't Gears use 2 or 3? Now I'm sure DVD will become outdated and we'll be having 200GB discs in the future but it still begs the question, how is the size limitation of DVDs hindering developers from making long games? And...why would a developer necessary make a longer game just because he/she can fit it onto a single disc? Now, Far Cry, I think, came out on 5 CDs and one just one DVD but at the end of the day, it's was the same game. Granted PCs are different from consoles but it serves the main point. DVDs are not preventing developers from making long games. They merely decided against it.

 I completely agree with you. The advantage is hard to quantify. I would say it this way though.

If at conception of a game, you had 50 gig per disk to work with vs 9 gig per disk, I could see different choices being made as to how the game is designed. Higher resolution textures, more levels, streaming content (might be more feasible if you didn't need to compress anything).

The problem is perspective. We are looking at games that have come out on more then one disk and are asking how those games would benefit from being on one. The answer is they wouldn't. The question is for those games... games where the developers had to think about storage constraints... is how would they have been different if they didn't need to worry about it?

I say they would be better. How much and in what way? Who knows. But saying that giving developers more tools to work with means same game, I think is inaccurate.



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totalwar23 said:
Tird fergesson said:
starcraft said:
So what your telling me is that your going to take the word of highly biased Sony first-party developers over those of Microsoft's and third-party developers? Any reason for that?

And do you want to actually deal with some of the facts I posted? Or are you conceding that I was right about all of them?;)

If you are conceding that, I'd say what you just posted is fairly debunked.

You criticize my sources while not quoting, but paraphrasing the words of a developer that is known for lashing out against other consoles besides the 360. Knowing Microsoft, the company with a larger GDP than half the countries in South America paid them to say stupid things like this. Now, with literally perfect reputation of Insomniac games and Microsoft's track record, who do you trust? And you can't even name the source. You really make me sick you fanboy. But if it makes you happy I'll answer your questions.

For fact one the article I posted in much more detail discredits any point you made there. Apparently you're not intuitive enough to realize that.

For Fact two, I'm sure the game takes up 22gigs. I'm also sure that they didn't do everything in their power to compress it but then again, why should they? They have the space, so why use up the time and resources to compress. Another thing, you call Bullshit but do you have any proof? I thought not. So now what you can call fact and fiction isn't credible.

For so called facts three and four, they would be facts if they were true. But unfortunately for your argument the cell is the name for the PS3's cpu, and it's a known FACT that the PS3's cpu is about 2 and a half times as powerful as the 360's. Think about it: the 360 has 3 processors running at 3.2 GHz each. The PS3 has 8 running at 3.2 GHz. Can you tell me which is more powerful? Now that I think about it you were completely talking out of your ass. I read the article you got that info from and not once does Ubisoft mention the Cell or give a reason for why the PS3 wouldn't be able to run their game.

As for fact number 5, those are 100% your opinion and words, and based on your new found track record, I'm taking nothing you say for granted. Insomniac specifically states that Resistance and Ratchet would not be possible on DVD's and whether you like the games or not it's true.

I'm not going to lie you pissed me off a little but you're just defending you're favorite console which I happen to own as well. As a matter of fact, I have bought two because one had gotten the RRoD. I Can't live without Halo:). But to be honest you have really made a fool of yourself but you can redeem yourself by apologizing. Until then make sure you know what you're talking about and don't bluff, because I will always call you on it.


 The statement I have highlighted has really discredited you. Generally because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 


 Ok, so tell me; what is the name of the PS3's cpu? The Cell processor. It has eight cores running at 3.2 GHz. That's not debatable. I'm so tired of people bluffing. The truth is you don't know if I'm right or not so your calling me on it in case I'm not. Well now you know so do the research before you look like an idiot.



@Tird fergesson
The Cell is very very powerful at very specialized things. (as much as 20x that of the 360), yet at other types of math, it's actually slower then the 360. Integer math is one of those things.

the 360 has 3 PPC CPU's, the Cell has 1 PPC, and 7 SPE's. 1 SPE does not = 1 PPC (for most thing).

For some things, 1 SPE > 3 PPC's. AI is not one of them.



Tird fergesson said:
Just read the article I posted by Insomniac. Developers can and choose to make their games longer not all the time but on no occasion is blu-ray ever a bad thing for the console. Putting a game on multiple discs especially when you have more than 2 is annoying and it drives production costs up. Think about it: if you make 5 million copies of Gears and each extra disc costs 17 cents you just lost about million dollars of profit which in the big scheme of things isn't really all that much but never is an appealing plan. And that comment had nothing to do with you and you have not disproved anything. You're joining the argument very late so I'm not debating with you anymore.

The one where you said the Cell has 8 core and is therefore 2.5 times stronger than the 3 core Xenon? Yeah, it's not about arguing whether the Cell is stronger than the Xenon. Anyone who has even read an article about the Cell and Xenon can tell what you said was absolute bullshit.

Edit-whoops, misread but to add a little more. But why not go further? The Wii's CPU is currently operating at 729 MHz or so reported. Each of the Xenon's core is operating at 3.2GHz so it's 4.4 times faster. Multiply that by 3 and and you get 13.2. So the Xbox 360 is 13.2 times more powerful than the Wii. On a similar line of logic. the PS3 would be 35.1 times more powerful. Would that make sense to you?



To all Blu-ray haters:

Why do you hate the advancement of a storage medium? Would you like all of our current gen games to be on cartridges, a la SNES and Genesis? I'm sure you didn't complain when we moved from cartridge to CD, and you didn't complain when we went from CD to DVD, all of which caused the price of games to go up. Now we're going from DVD to Blu-ray, and there's been nothing but backlash.

Everyone's saying that BD is useless, but I could say the same about DVD when it first came out on consoles, and that they COULD have used CD. Just look at Tekken Tag and Way of the Samurai on PS2. But later on, we all see that this was proved wrong, as games like God of War 2 and Gran Turismo 4 took up dual layer DVDs, and benefitted from the additional size.

Now the issue of size is up in the air again this generation, and you all seem to hate it, even though you've loved it in the past. OLD TECHNOLOGY GETS PHASED OUT! You didn't see any blue sided CDs in 2007 on the PS2. You didn't see cartridges on the PS1. Why are you bashing Blu-ray for being in the PS3 when, according to past trends, DVD will become obsolete soon? Sure, those games on those blue sided CDs looked good when they came out, but later, comparatively, the games with larger size were miles better. And this will happen this generation also. It's happened EVERY generation where a new storage medium was used



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BMaker11 said:
To all Blu-ray haters:

Why do you hate the advancement of a storage medium? Would you like all of our current gen games to be on cartridges, a la SNES and Genesis? I'm sure you didn't complain when we moved from cartridge to CD, and you didn't complain when we went from CD to DVD, all of which caused the price of games to go up. Now we're going from DVD to Blu-ray, and there's been nothing but backlash.

Everyone's saying that BD is useless, but I could say the same about DVD when it first came out on consoles, and that they COULD have used CD. Just look at Tekken Tag and Way of the Samurai on PS2. But later on, we all see that this was proved wrong, as games like God of War 2 and Gran Turismo 4 took up dual layer DVDs, and benefitted from the additional size.

Now the issue of size is up in the air again this generation, and you all seem to hate it, even though you've loved it in the past. OLD TECHNOLOGY GETS PHASED OUT! You didn't see any blue sided CDs in 2007 on the PS2. You didn't see cartridges on the PS1. Why are you bashing Blu-ray for being in the PS3 when, according to past trends, DVD will become obsolete soon? Sure, those games on those blue sided CDs looked good when they came out, but later, comparatively, the games with larger size were miles better. And this will happen this generation also. It's happened EVERY generation where a new storage medium was used
Actually, I believe the opening topic is that if somehow GoW 2 was on Bluray, Epic would make the game 20 hours long or something like that but they didn't because DVD didn't have enough space. That is quite unplausible as someone has already pointed out, HS was about 6 hours long so more space does not = longer games.

 




 Well if this was Starcraft arguing than maybe we would have a case. Maybe he should log back onto his account and address the points I brought up. It sure is funny how you and Starcraft own the exact same games. Wow, I don't suppose that maybe... you're starcraft? I guess I'll never know you stupid little douche bag.



Tird fergesson said:
 

You criticize my sources while not quoting, but paraphrasing the words of a developer that is known for lashing out against other consoles besides the 360. Knowing Microsoft, the company with a larger GDP than half the countries in South America paid them to say stupid things like this. Now, with literally perfect reputation of Insomniac games and Microsoft's track record, who do you trust? And you can't even name the source. You really make me sick you fanboy. But if it makes you happy I'll answer your questions.

For fact one the article I posted in much more detail discredits any point you made there. Apparently you're not intuitive enough to realize that.

For Fact two, I'm sure the game takes up 22gigs. I'm also sure that they didn't do everything in their power to compress it but then again, why should they? They have the space, so why use up the time and resources to compress. Another thing, you call Bullshit but do you have any proof? I thought not. So now what you can call fact and fiction isn't credible.

For so called facts three and four, they would be facts if they were true. But unfortunately for your argument the cell is the name for the PS3's cpu, and it's a known FACT that the PS3's cpu is about 2 and a half times as powerful as the 360's. Think about it: the 360 has 3 processors running at 3.2 GHz each. The PS3 has 8 running at 3.2 GHz. Can you tell me which is more powerful? Now that I think about it you were completely talking out of your ass. I read the article you got that info from and not once does Ubisoft mention the Cell or give a reason for why the PS3 wouldn't be able to run their game.

As for fact number 5, those are 100% your opinion and words, and based on your new found track record, I'm taking nothing you say for granted. Insomniac specifically states that Resistance and Ratchet would not be possible on DVD's and whether you like the games or not it's true.

I'm not going to lie you pissed me off a little but you're just defending you're favorite console which I happen to own as well. As a matter of fact, I have bought two because one had gotten the RRoD. I Can't live without Halo:). But to be honest you have really made a fool of yourself but you can redeem yourself by apologizing. Until then make sure you know what you're talking about and don't bluff, because I will always call you on it.


- Ubisoft developers stated that being exclusive to the 360 allows them to do much more than if they were multiplatform, but they also state they doubt they would be able to achieve what they're doing with the game on the 360 on the ps3 even if it was ps3 exclusive.

http://www.destructoid.com/new-splinter-cell-conviction-scans-ubisoft-devs-crap-on-the-ps3-update--31376.phtml

That there is one of the many articles on the subject of the PS3's ability to run AI relative to the 360's ability.  At the end of the day your trying to convince me that a developer whose salary is directly paid by the multinational who owns the console a game is exclusive to is more reputable than one is who paid by an independant third-party.  

As for why they would compress?  I think it was Shams (you know that guy, the Mod that works for an Australian tech consulting company) who first explained to a rather aggressive person like yourself that compression simply makes good economic and technological sense.  If one doesn't compress, one fills up and slows down one's servers and data banks faster, and make data transfer between development sites far slower and more costly.  The only reason not to maximize compression from the outset is the PR value of saying, "we need Blu-Ray."  I might add that the read speed of the PS3's Blu-Ray drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive's read speed, resulting in the neccessity of duplicating data on the Blu-Ray disk to improve stream speeds.

http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=4

"In IBM’s controlled testing environment, their optimized code on 8 SPE only yielded a performance number of 155.5GFLOPS. If it took 8 SPE to achieve that, no way 6 will be able to and that testing was done in a fashion that didn’t model all the complexities of DMA and the memory system. Using a 1Kx1K matrix and 8 SPE they were able to achieve 73.4GFLOPS, but the PS3 uses 6 SPE for games and these tests were done in controlled environments. So going on this information, even 73.4GFLOPS is seemingly out of reach, showing us that Sony didn’t necessarily lie about the cell’s performance as they made clear the 218GFLOPS was “theoretical.” But just like Microsoft they definitely wanted you to misinterpret these numbers into believing they were achievable."

That is an exert from a tech analysis that indicates that in a gaming environment, the PS3's processor could not even reach one third of the 'potential' performance Sony states that it has.  IT also points out that your statement about SPE's and their use is complete crap, as one is disabled, and one is used to run the PS3's OS.  If you read the entire article (which I won't post as it is 11 pages long), you'll find that none of the PS3's SPE's operate REMOTELY like conventional 3.2 GH processors.

The article also discredit's the read speed of the PS3's Blu-Ray drive, and indicates that the PS3 doesn't have nearly the RAM neccessary to support the kind of detail and game length advantage you seem to believe the format gives the PS3.

Now your trolling and personal attacks can easily be undone by apologizing to me.  I assure you I will accept your apology.  Here are some things to remember in future:

-If you start a thread saying one console's exclusive could be done better on another console, and then scream at the people who discredit your comments that they are 'fanboys' you will come off looking a little strange and illogical.

-This is an internet forum, not CNN.  You cannot expect posts based on common sense to have a source at the end EVERY SINGLE TIME.

-If you ARE going to have a source based argument, it would be better to base it on tech articles and third-party statements like I have, rather than simple quoting Sony employees, who clearly have a vested interest. 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Tird fergesson said:
Just read the article I posted by Insomniac. Developers can and choose to make their games longer not all the time but on no occasion is blu-ray ever a bad thing for the console. Putting a game on multiple discs especially when you have more than 2 is annoying and it drives production costs up. Think about it: if you make 5 million copies of Gears and each extra disc costs 17 cents you just lost about million dollars of profit which in the big scheme of things isn't really all that much but never is an appealing plan. And that comment had nothing to do with you and you have not disproved anything. You're joining the argument very late so I'm not debating with you anymore.

Have you factored the higher cost of a single Blu-Ray disk relative to a single DVD9 disk into your estimates?

What about the fact that Sony charges a higher royalty rate than Microsoft and Nintendo? 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

totalwar23 said:
BMaker11 said:

Actually, I believe the opening topic is that if somehow GoW 2 was on Bluray, Epic would make the game 20 hours long or something like that but they didn't because DVD didn't have enough space. That is quite unplausible as someone has already pointed out, HS was about 6 hours long so more space does not = longer games.

 


 You wanna know why HS was only 6 hours? PR spin. As you can tell, I'm a Sony fan, but i'm not illogical. The reason that HS was only 6 hours was because they packed it full of all that uncompressed sound in like 40 different languages. I acknowledge that. But take into consideration that if they only used one language, maybe the game could have been longer. Look at Resistance. It was competing with Gears when it released, and Insomniac was smart about it. Instead of making the game in English/French/Spanish/Japanese/Albanian? etc all on one disc, they put one language on it and with the extra space left, they made it about a 15-17 hour game. And it was first generation. Now apply this to something like Gears. I think Gears COULD be a longer game if they had it on Blu-ray.