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Forums - Politics Discussion - Atomic bomb survivors want an apology from Obama.

Nuvendil said:
Soundwave said:

If the US did drop nukes on Japan for the main purpose of showing up the Russians though ... it's hard to look at that event as anything other than a massive war crime. 

The narrative that dropping the nukes to prevent a ground war do seem to be a bit dubious considering the US had Japan at that point completely cut off and surrounded without the ability to resupply itself. 

Have you even read about the force Japan had amassed to meet a mainland invasion?  Operation Ketsugo?  And the ferocity of the battles throughout the Pacific?  Japan had repeatedly fought with intensity well beyond the point of hopelessness.  They had demonstrated their willingness to go to extraordinary, even near suicidal tactics like bonsai charges against far superior numbers, to keep up the fighting.  The US had no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case.  

Seriously, read up on the projected outcomes of Operation Downfall and the measures of Japan in Operation Ketsugo.  The Japanese even planned to pull from all males 15 to 60 and all females 17 to 40 to aid in the battle.  Casualties were expected to be extraordinary.  Also, they anticipated they would likely need nukes or near-equal destructive weapons to succeed without casualties climbing to outright ludicrous levels.

Japan was pretty much on its knees by this point in the war though, the US had them effectively surrounded and cut off from resupply/oil/etc. 

From here

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-it-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192

According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was “looking for peace”. Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

“Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan,” says Selden.




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Ka-pi96 said:
Ruler said:

Yes its the start of the war same is true for germany.

And where was the embargo against britain when they attacked hong kong, or when the US colonized the phillepines? 

No, embargoes aren't a war. North Korea is heavily embargoed, but nobody is actively at war with them. I expect Russia had some embargoes placed on them after the Crimean incident, but that wasn't a war. Saying 'no we won't trade with you anymore' is VERY different to attacking someone. Attacking someone = war. Not trading with someone = well... simply not trading with someone, nothing more and nothing less.

And why would anyone want to embargo Britain or the US then? They were both so dominant that embargoing them would be more harmful to the one doing the embargoing than to them.

So youre saying because the US and UK were untouchable they were right in doing the same things like Japan did? 

Trade embargos are an act of agression, North Korea was sanctioned since 20 years. And look at them now, they have their own nuke. Did these sanctions made it better?



There's clearly been some kind of mix up. The guy you're after is President Truman.

I wouldn't want Obama to apologise for Horishima/Nagasaki anymore than I'd want Abe to apoligise for Pearl Harbor.



Soundwave said:
Jon-Erich said:

Oh yeah, the Russians had every intention in moving in on Japan. The atom bombs not only brought a quick surrender but it also sent a message to the Russians to stay away. The Emperor and his advisors also feared the Russians but the extreme right-wing element of the Japanese imperial army who were encouraging citizens to fight to the death and were also trying to take over the government while holding the Emperor hostage didn't give a shit about the Russians. But again, history was on Japan's side. What happened in Germany and Korea could have easily happened in Japan. It didn't. As I said before, out of all the terrible decisions that were made, the ussage of the atom bombs were the least terrible. If anything, they saved Japan.

If the US did drop nukes on Japan for the main purpose of showing up the Russians though ... it's hard to look at that event as anything other than a massive war crime. 

The narrative that dropping the nukes to prevent a ground war do seem to be a bit dubious considering the US had Japan at that point completely cut off and surrounded without the ability to resupply itself. 

Trust me, the US and the Allies had already committed plenty of war crimes in Germany long before those atom bombs were dropped. Nobody who was involved in WWII walked away with clean hands. 

 

 However, the ground invasion was planned for November of 1945 and was expected to last well into 1946. It was known as Operation Downfall while the exact date of the operation (November, 1945) was known as X-Day. While Japan had no way of resupplying itself, the government their had started to train civilians on the basics of hand to hand combat and had also told them to start removing metal pipes from their houses and sharpen them into usable weapons. They were getting to that point of desperation. Japan also had a defense force that was still fairly well equipped. Much of their Navy had been destroyed as well as the Air Force, giving the US free reign of the skies and surrounding sea but the army was the main problem. The idea from the extreme right-wing element of Japan was that surrender wasn't an option while the more reasonable people within the government thought the US and allies would want to agree to what they saw as more reasonable surrender terms. The plans had been drafted without consideration for the atomic bombs sinc ethe bombs was kept a secret from almost everybody and were still technically on the table after the bombs were dropped. 



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

Civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan deserves an apology too

Also Pearl harbor was a military base



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Soundwave said:
Nuvendil said:

Have you even read about the force Japan had amassed to meet a mainland invasion?  Operation Ketsugo?  And the ferocity of the battles throughout the Pacific?  Japan had repeatedly fought with intensity well beyond the point of hopelessness.  They had demonstrated their willingness to go to extraordinary, even near suicidal tactics like bonsai charges against far superior numbers, to keep up the fighting.  The US had no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case.  

Seriously, read up on the projected outcomes of Operation Downfall and the measures of Japan in Operation Ketsugo.  The Japanese even planned to pull from all males 15 to 60 and all females 17 to 40 to aid in the battle.  Casualties were expected to be extraordinary.  Also, they anticipated they would likely need nukes or near-equal destructive weapons to succeed without casualties climbing to outright ludicrous levels.

Japan was pretty much on its knees by this point in the war though, the US had them effectively surrounded and cut off from resupply/oil/etc. 

From here

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-it-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192

According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was “looking for peace”. Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

“Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan,” says Selden.


And others will contradict that guy.  I don't take sides much on this and really rarely comment.  Cause frankly both sides always wind up shouting at each other in rage, usually with gobs of misinformation or just insults.  My point was that Japan's helplessness on other islands hadn't stopped them before.  And for a country on their kneesknees they sure were still gearing up to make a campaign of attrition.  I have no doubt that impressing Russia was on their mind.  But they could have done that within the parameters of Operation Downfall.  Or they could have targeted a far larger city.  This image usually painted by anti-hiroshima people is of a cold, unthinking, murderous government.  Me?  I don't *know* what went on in those meetings, I don't *know* what Truman was thinking.  I just know that the War was hell, Japan did  lenty if terrible things themselves, and the circumstances that lead to their surrender were sure as hell better than Operation Downfall which would have killed far more civilians and military due to the measures Japan took in Operation Ketsugo.

 

Also, the Japanese government wanted peace, we wanted surrender.  Very different things.  That was the point of Ketsugo.



Ruler said:
Jon-Erich said:

As I said before, Japan didn't just attack a military base. They occupied territories such as Wake Island, Guam, and the Philippines where both military and cililian populations brutally tortured and murdered by the Japanese Imperial Army. That's just the US side of it. Go ahead and ask the Chinese and Koreans how good Japan was to them. I would never approve of doing things for the sake of vengeance, but by the end of the way, Japan had pissed off quite a few people.

As for the embargo, the embargo was put in place because Roosevelt had learned that oil from the US was fueling Japan's war in the far east. The idea was that by cutting off the oild supply, Japan would have to pull out of China. Japan felt that since America was largely an isolationist nation at the time, that an attack would not only keep the US out of the Pacific for a while but also bring them to the negotiating table. None of that happened. Still, the embargo was fairly justified. Would you want to sell something to another country knowing that what your selling them is causing an unjustified war to take place?

So why is the US selling weapons right now around the world to questionable countries? Like Saudi Arabia making war against syria and yemen?

great so the US cried about Japan colonizing US colonies?

 

Because those countries are serving the interests of the people who are currently at the head the US government...who were not the same people who were in charge back in the 1930's and 40's. Before the Neocons came along and started dictating US foreign policy, America left most of everyone alone. As for the colonization of US territory, two wrongs don't make a right. Japan had this mentality that because the US and Britain colonized certain territories, that they also have that right. That is the wrong mentality to have. Not to mention, they didn't simply occupy US territories. They committed all sorts of acts of torture and murder of POW's and civilians. That was completely uncalled for and unjustified.



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

Nuvendil said:
Soundwave said:

Japan was pretty much on its knees by this point in the war though, the US had them effectively surrounded and cut off from resupply/oil/etc. 

From here

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-it-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192

According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was “looking for peace”. Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

“Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan,” says Selden.


And others will contradict that guy.  I don't take sides much on this and really rarely comment.  Cause frankly both sides always wind up shouting at each other in rage, usually with gobs of misinformation or just insults.  My point was that Japan's helplessness on other islands hadn't stopped them before.  And for a country on their kneesknees they sure were still gearing up to make a campaign of attrition.  I have no doubt that impressing Russia was on their mind.  But they could have done that within the parameters of Operation Downfall.  Or they could have targeted a far larger city.  This image usually painted by anti-hiroshima people is of a cold, unthinking, murderous government.  Me?  I don't *know* what went on in those meetings, I don't *know* what Truman was thinking.  I just know that the War was hell, Japan did  lenty if terrible things themselves, and the circumstances that lead to their surrender were sure as hell better than Operation Downfall which would have killed far more civilians and military due to the measures Japan took in Operation Ketsugo.

 

Also, the Japanese government wanted peace, we wanted surrender.  Very different things.  That was the point of Ketsugo.

All I know Is it saved my grandfathers life , he was a POW in Japan at the time and told me that there where documents sent out to all the prisons ordering that in the case of an allied invasion  the staff  where to kill all POW's by any means neccesary including shooting ,beheading  ,strangulation etc.  



Research shows Video games  help make you smarter, so why am I an idiot

Also, funny how the nukes get all the attention when the firebombing of Japan in the lead up to invasion resulted in significantly more civilian death. 100k+ more. Just food for thought. Or should we apologize for that too?



Ironically, the Pearl Harbor attack that got the US into the war was carried out by someone who thought it was a terrible idea. Isoroku Yamamoto, who actually lived in the US for sometime and went to Harvard knew that the US would never take kindly to such an attack and had predicted that Japan could not win a war against the US. Unfortunately, he was a Navy guy and one of the more reasonable moderates who actually openly criticized a lot of Japan's war aggressions. The people in government unfortunately, were those who were either in the Army or loyal to the Army and it was the Army who dictated Japan's wartime policies. It is no wonder that most of Japan's war crimes were carried out by those and in Army and not so much the Navy.

I think if Japan had more people like Yamamoto involved in government policy making, perhaps those atom bomb attacks may not have ever happened.



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com