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Forums - Gaming - What I would like to see in the PS5 and PS4.5 (being a UHD blu ray player)

SvennoJ said:
Guitarguy said:

Good points but UHD Blu Rays being dead on arrival is due to those certain films being finished on a 2K digital intermediate and then up-rezzed to 4K, meaning it is not a genuine and pure 4K output. Hence why the current '4k' blu rays being only marginally superior than their 1080P counterparts.

No, 4K mastering has been going on for a while now. Plenty blu-rays already have 4k masters. Some have even been scanned at 8k from their 70mm source, while remasters are generally scanned at 4K from 35mm. There is only a small gap of the early naughties that is plagued with a 2K production chain. You will never see LOTR in proper 4K as that was all filmed and produced in 2K. However Ben Hur (1959) will look excellent in 4K.
Pretty much all movies are now filmed in 5k and mastered in 4K, 2K digital intermediates are a thing of the past.

It is early days and the list is still quite small.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/2202713-master-list-currently-available-4k-hdr-titles-will-updated-often.html


I would not say 2k digital intermediates are a thing of the past:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/X-Men-Days-of-Future-Past-4K-Blu-ray/145679/
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Mad-Max-Fury-Road-4K-Blu-ray/147183/#Review


"Mastered in 4k" does not mean true 4k resolution. It simply means a 4K scan of the original camera negative. The output of these "mastered in 4K' discs is still 1080P. The 4k scan is then down-converted to 1080P, compressed and authored(amongst other things). These disks do look better than standard 1080P disks, but it is no where near true 4K.

Some UHD blu rays are finished on 4k digital intermediates but a strange amount of very recent films where finished on 2k...



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Guitarguy said:
SvennoJ said:

No, 4K mastering has been going on for a while now. Plenty blu-rays already have 4k masters. Some have even been scanned at 8k from their 70mm source, while remasters are generally scanned at 4K from 35mm. There is only a small gap of the early naughties that is plagued with a 2K production chain. You will never see LOTR in proper 4K as that was all filmed and produced in 2K. However Ben Hur (1959) will look excellent in 4K.
Pretty much all movies are now filmed in 5k and mastered in 4K, 2K digital intermediates are a thing of the past.

It is early days and the list is still quite small.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/2202713-master-list-currently-available-4k-hdr-titles-will-updated-often.html


I would not say 2k digital intermediates are a thing of the past:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/X-Men-Days-of-Future-Past-4K-Blu-ray/145679/
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Mad-Max-Fury-Road-4K-Blu-ray/147183/#Review


"Mastered in 4k" does not mean true 4k resolution. It simply means a 4K scan of the original camera negative. The output of these "mastered in 4K' discs is still 1080P. The 4k scan is then down-converted to 1080P, compressed and authored(amongst other things). These disks do look better than standard 1080P disks, but it is no where near true 4K.

Some UHD blu rays are finished on 4k digital intermediates but a strange amount of very recent films where finished on 2k...

Wow, thanks for showing that. I always check blu-ray.com before buying anyway, but I didn't think the industry would be so stupid. Ofcourse, I should have known better with the early single layer mpeg2 blu-ray discs.

Here's the culprit, the movies were made in 2K

X-Men days of future past:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1877832/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
ARRIRAW (2.8K) (also dual-strip 3-D) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

Max Max Fury road:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
ARRIRAW (2.8K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

I stand corrected, 2K is still a thing :( I guess 4K cinema is a lot slower in uptake than I thought.
Even the Martian still has a 2K digital intermediate.

The Revenant should be in actual 4K
ARRIRAW (3.4K) (6.5K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)



SvennoJ said:

Wow, thanks for showing that. I always check blu-ray.com before buying anyway, but I didn't think the industry would be so stupid. Ofcourse, I should have known better with the early single layer mpeg2 blu-ray discs.

Here's the culprit, the movies were made in 2K

X-Men days of future past:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1877832/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
ARRIRAW (2.8K) (also dual-strip 3-D) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

Max Max Fury road:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
ARRIRAW (2.8K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

I stand corrected, 2K is still a thing :( I guess 4K cinema is a lot slower in uptake than I thought.
Even the Martian still has a 2K digital intermediate.

The Revenant should be in actual 4K
ARRIRAW (3.4K) (6.5K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)


No worries :) It is almost shocking that movies made in the last 2-3 years were still finished on a 2k DI....The Martian was a big one cause of its massive budget and was only released last year. Bit decieving on movie studios to claim it is 4K Ultra HD but I suppose it technically is 'up-rezzed' to 4k. This is one of the many reasons by I do not own a UHD TV currently, as the content for it is either not there yet, extremely limited or half-assed(like this 2K DI business).



Guitarguy said:
 

No worries :) It is almost shocking that movies made in the last 2-3 years were still finished on a 2k DI....The Martian was a big one cause of its massive budget and was only released last year. Bit decieving on movie studios to claim it is 4K Ultra HD but I suppose it technically is 'up-rezzed' to 4k. This is one of the many reasons by I do not own a UHD TV currently, as the content for it is either not there yet, extremely limited or half-assed(like this 2K DI business).

There are still some benefits, less compression artifacts, 4x the color resolution and 4x the color precision with HDR. At least those 2K digital master formats are in 4:4:4 10 bit color. So basically you finally get to see what 1080p is fully capable off. No wonder they say that color makes a much bigger difference as the gray scale resolution is essentially still the same :/

If there is a 4K UHD player that can downsample to 4:4:4 xvYCC 1080p, or full RGB 1080p than it would still look a big step above blu-ray on my projector. (Unfortunately my tv doesn't support 4:4:4, instead converts everything to 4:2:0 subsampling before displaying. Early 1080p lcd) If anyone can, Sony can do it with the ps4.



SvennoJ said:
Guitarguy said:

No worries :) It is almost shocking that movies made in the last 2-3 years were still finished on a 2k DI....The Martian was a big one cause of its massive budget and was only released last year. Bit decieving on movie studios to claim it is 4K Ultra HD but I suppose it technically is 'up-rezzed' to 4k. This is one of the many reasons by I do not own a UHD TV currently, as the content for it is either not there yet, extremely limited or half-assed(like this 2K DI business).

There are still some benefits, less compression artifacts, 4x the color resolution and 4x the color precision with HDR. At least those 2K digital master formats are in 4:4:4 10 bit color. So basically you finally get to see what 1080p is fully capable off. No wonder they say that color makes a much bigger difference as the gray scale resolution is essentially still the same :/

If there is a 4K UHD player that can downsample to 4:4:4 xvYCC 1080p, or full RGB 1080p than it would still look a big step above blu-ray on my projector. (Unfortunately my tv doesn't support 4:4:4, instead converts everything to 4:2:0 subsampling before displaying. Early 1080p lcd) If anyone can, Sony can do it with the ps4.


Sony are one of the few companies that still cater for videophiles. Their Bravia engine is great at upscaling sub-1080P content(retro consoles via the optimal connections), their TV's still contain component input(I hope they never go away) and their TV's generally have the least amount of input lag. I do think it is still a few years away where we everything(games, blu ray, TV etc) will be true 4K though. I'm fine with waiting as the prices of 4K TVs will drop significantly. But then there is OLED... HOT DAMN!!!



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nanarchy said:
I have a lot of doubt that physical media will exist in the next gen of consoles (except Nintendo's) and I would actually be rather disappointed if they wasted the money and effort to put a player in the next gen. UHD is far too niche at this point to bother with for a mainstream console, not to mention the horsepower to drive such a display for games in a console is a long way off (at least at affordable power efficient levels).

Then you don't know much of the world my friend. Just because you live in the the West and have good internet speed cheaply doesn't mean the rest of the world has the same standard, an emerging world where Sony is selling more and more consoles. Heck, not even every country in the West has good enough internet for a next gen all digital console. Digital sales make up to 20% of curren console game sales, even if it were 50/50 in 3-4 years time when PS5 launches, physical media ain't going nowhere yet.



These standards being in consoles depends on outside factors though. Are there tv's that support them? Are they affordable for the mass market? They don't make consoles for the 1%. Fortunately 4K, HDR, 10 bit, Rec 2020 colour space standards are being introduced left and right so there's a good chance in 3-4 years time it'll be cheap and common enough in tv's for consoles to utilize in games. PS4.5 is already bringing those standards for video later this year, just seen the first UHD blurays have launched some weeks ago.

 



Guitarguy said:
 

Sony are one of the few companies that still cater for videophiles. Their Bravia engine is great at upscaling sub-1080P content(retro consoles via the optimal connections), their TV's still contain component input(I hope they never go away) and their TV's generally have the least amount of input lag. I do think it is still a few years away where we everything(games, blu ray, TV etc) will be true 4K though. I'm fine with waiting as the prices of 4K TVs will drop significantly. But then there is OLED... HOT DAMN!!!

OLED looks fantastic but for the price the features are a bit lacking, plus burn is is a concern again. They advise against displaying 4:3 content for more than an hour. Plus the brightness dimms over time, its like early plasma again.

I wonder what happened to laser projection. It was the next big thing in 2012, gone silent since.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/redray-4k-cinema-laser-hands-on/
Sony made one, VPL-GTZ270, but that's for the professional market. Can't even find a price, and 5000 lumens is overkill for home theater. They also made an ultra short throw 4k laser projector you can simply put on the floor in front of a wall VPL-GTZ1, running at $50k :/

OLED is cheap compared to that :) Yet a 55" 4K tv kinda defeats the purpose imo. I'm spoiled by the big screen.
I paid $4000 for a very good 1080p projector in 2007 which still looks great after over 10,000 hours of use (4 lamp replacements already though) Maybe next year 4K projectors hit that price. Yet the ps5 could be coming out by the time OLED and 4K projectors mature enough.



SvennoJ said:
Guitarguy said:

Sony are one of the few companies that still cater for videophiles. Their Bravia engine is great at upscaling sub-1080P content(retro consoles via the optimal connections), their TV's still contain component input(I hope they never go away) and their TV's generally have the least amount of input lag. I do think it is still a few years away where we everything(games, blu ray, TV etc) will be true 4K though. I'm fine with waiting as the prices of 4K TVs will drop significantly. But then there is OLED... HOT DAMN!!!

OLED looks fantastic but for the price the features are a bit lacking, plus burn is is a concern again. They advise against displaying 4:3 content for more than an hour. Plus the brightness dimms over time, its like early plasma again.

I wonder what happened to laser projection. It was the next big thing in 2012, gone silent since.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/redray-4k-cinema-laser-hands-on/
Sony made one, VPL-GTZ270, but that's for the professional market. Can't even find a price, and 5000 lumens is overkill for home theater. They also made an ultra short throw 4k laser projector you can simply put on the floor in front of a wall VPL-GTZ1, running at $50k :/

OLED is cheap compared to that :) Yet a 55" 4K tv kinda defeats the purpose imo. I'm spoiled by the big screen.
I paid $4000 for a very good 1080p projector in 2007 which still looks great after over 10,000 hours of use (4 lamp replacements already though) Maybe next year 4K projectors hit that price. Yet the ps5 could be coming out by the time OLED and 4K projectors mature enough.


Didn't know about burn-in... That is a big hinderance actually, especially if it can occur after only an hour(elements such as game HUD's could easily burn in). Didn't know about the brightness dimming over time, that is disappointing too. Looks like I'll probably bite the bullet and go with a nice 4K TV later down the line. Til then, more than happy with my Bravias :D