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@The real mafoo, I think you generalized a bit there, I think it all comes down to taste, to me OSX takes all the joy out of computing I like knowing that I know the little tricks that make me special, I like being the Tech savvy guy and OSX is oversimplified and takes most features that a pro user would like doing for the sake of "casuals". I have a great understanding of OSX, as I have to use it every day, I still prefer my cheaper, better 17" hp vista laptop every day of the week, and twice on sundays.

For the record I use macs for final cut pro, which is a GREAT software that I would recommend anyone, thats about the only thing Macs have that exclusively and I love.



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TheRealMafoo said:
IllegalPaladin said:
Still, even if you wanted a gaming computer or merely a computer for music and internet browsing, it'd still be cheaper to run to newegg.com and build one yourself, which I believe still falls in Kenobi's argument of PC's being cheaper.

It is true that if you want a gaming PC you’re much better off without buying an Apple, but that's not the same argument that Apples are overpriced.

They are not in the market of making gaming PC's, so trying to fit something they make into that use, and then complaining that Apple is overpriced is just not right.

It's like buying the most economical 18 wheeler semi, and using it as a commuter car, and then complaining that it's over priced compared to all the other commuter cars.


I was talking about not only a gaming computer, but one just for music and internet browsing (or just doing things that don't require the power), you'd still be much cheaper than a Mac, though maybe not as powerful unless you were to build it yourself as opposed to a store.

Still, I built my computer for games, but it's still much better than the PC's on campus. Not only that, I find the PC's and Macs on campus to perform similarly (Mac has some more power considering the C2D's, but mainly it has more room with widescreen monitors and the way the windows work) when it comes to using Adobe software (Photoshop and Illustrator for example).... So then my computer which I use for gaming is potentially better than the expensive Mac on campus for the exact same thing.



PC's are cool and easy to use. Mac OS is crap.



cebrian said:
@The real mafoo, I think you generalized a bit there, I think it all comes down to taste, to me OSX takes all the joy out of computing I like knowing that I know the little tricks that make me special, I like being the Tech savvy guy and OSX is oversimplified and takes most features that a pro user would like doing for the sake of "casuals". I have a great understanding of OSX, as I have to use it every day, I still prefer my cheaper, better 17" hp vista laptop every day of the week, and twice on sundays.

For the record I use macs for final cut pro, which is a GREAT software that I would recommend anyone, thats about the only thing Macs have that exclusively and I love.

Wow, there are so many tweaks you can do with OSX. It's a UNIX OS. Vertualy anything you can do on Linux, you can do on OSX, you just are not required too. You can run X11 on it if you like. (I do all the time). Almost every Apple app has command line tweaks that are for the super users. Apple allows you to get stuff done and not use them, but there is so much more if your interested in looking under the hood.
 
@IllegalPaladin
For those users, I would recommend a Mac Mini. It's $599, and will probably outlast two $350 PC's. Apple only makes one Mac OS (non sever anyway), So you get everything the big Macs have (all the iLife stuff), just with it being a little slower. It's basically a Mac Book in a desktop form. Yea, it’s a little more money, but for the lifetime of the purchase, you are ahead. (less to do with hardware, more to do with OSX being a UNIX OS, and thus as time goes on, upgrades don’t make recent hardware obsolete.)

 



redspear said:
Plaupius said:

As for overpriced, that case has been repeated ad nauseaum. But, looking at things "objectively", Macs are not that overpriced, and the software is IMO cheap. Of course, it all depends on what you compare it to: against free, it's more oxpensive, and it is true that there is a general tendency for OS X software makers to charge for their programs. The selection of free software is not as extensive as for Windows (or, to a certain extent, Linux, though you can get a lot of ports). But anyway, about the only thing I really miss is IrfanView, I haven't found a comparable alternative for OS X yet.

Anyhow, I've been schocked that people seem to place no value whatsoever on design or usability. My two year old MacbookPro is still miles ahead of pretty much anything the PC-laptops have to offer when it comes to the quality, design and just overall experience I get from using it. It's been a revelation to me that using a computer does not have to be a chore, it can actually be a pleasant experience. I never, ever, experienced that with Windows.

OH I do place value on usability and design. Personally I find the layout of OS X to be extremely frustrating the number one issue is the dock which goes against the key rules of a GUI and wastes work space. I do like the borderless edges on OSX windows though. I do not like the menus being on top of the screen particularily when multitaksing. I do not like having to readjust the windows while maximizing(for what ever purpose either to fit the window to viewable area of a web page or to fill the whole screen). The thing about usability and design is it is subjective and not one size fits all and this is a place that OSX fails the most. What if I want the apple bar on the bottom nope forget about it not gonna happen. That is poor design. Another thing that irks me is when i have several open windows like lets say Logic 8 and Compressor. Now I jump form one to the otehr and then goto the top and select the file option  once that program is active instead of going to the top of the window and clicking on file before it is open allowing for quicker access to options on non active windows. Or the whole red X thing that you quit but not really quit and having to goto the taskbar to actually quit. I know there are keyboard shortcuts that allow these things to be faster but as a GUI it is more cumbersome IMO.Finally Lenovo makes better laptops than Macbook pros and when was the last time you could buy a quad core MacBook Pro or even a Macbook Pro that had intergrated Blue Ray. The Hardware still lags. OSX made Fitt role in his grave.


Well well well... I autohide my dock, and place it on the side, so it wastes no work space at all. And for what it is meant to be, IMO it works very well. That the menu bar is always on the top took a bit of getting used to, but now I find it much better than a menu bar in each window. You know, it's always in the same place, kinda easy to find methinks.

And yeah, design is subjective and usability is somewhat subjective, or rather it is user- and context-dependant. But that's not all there is to it, I recommend reading Taste for Makers to get a different view on design. I do have my own irks with the OS X way of doing things, but I respect the design decisions made because I can see the underlying design philosophy at least partly. And it is different from Windows, make no mistake about that. For example, the red X. It closes the window, which, in OS X philosophy, is not the same thing as the program.

I actually suspect that OS X developers want and slightly "force" the users to learn the basic keyboard shortcuts. It's just my gut feeling, based on the fact that pretty much each program has the same basic set of shortcuts, and that using them is so much easier than doing the same things from the GUI. I'm on the fence about that, but at least for me it's made working all that much more efficient.

Funny thing that you mention Fitt, btw. Do you think Windows does any better in that regard? 



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Mac is bad, Mac is crap!

Well...

I actually love Mac and own two of them. Those who like Windows can stay on Windows. That way, developers of viruses will continue to write them for PC's and not Mac. If Mac were to become the market leader then we would have to deal with the viruses.

So yeah, Mac sucks!



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Currently Playing: Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Guitar Hero III, Ghost Squad, Super Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Wii Play

@mafoo the mac preferences are not near as good as the control panel in windows, the preferences in quicktime give me a pain in the neck every time i try to wrestle with them in mac.. and i could go on and on.


I hate the exposé because if you are working and hover over the corners of the screen, it makes you stop what you are doing and takes over the computer... good thing you can get rid of it, i like all my windows having different space in the task bar in windows, i like being able to control tab my way through every window, i love the second mouse button and the scrolling wheel, which are now standard in the pc world and not so much in macs, I like being able to maximize my windows so i can concentrate on the program at hand and use the whole screen. And I don't mind viruses, I'm not stupid enough to fall for them, and I'm actually protected by antiviruses.



Mac FTW.
I use Mac for 3 years and I got no virus.



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TheRealMafoo said:
De85 said:
PC, because Apple Users are worse than scientologists when it comes to preaching.

OT: Steve Jobs is no better than Bill Gates, and is now employing the very same tactics for which Microsoft was slapped with several antitrust suits a few years ago.

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/03/safari-windows.html

Funny, every time I get on a Mac vs. PC argument, it's usually to defend some misinformation given by PC users. I have no need to preach. If you want a Mac, go buy one. If you don't... well... don't.

I will say this though, the fact that Mac users as so positive about the products should say something. My first MS OS was DOS in 1981. I have owned (and enjoyed) every OS M has made aside from Vista (I have used it, I just hated it and uninstalled it). I make my living because of MS. I am a .NET developer. I have an MSDN license that allows me to use any MS software product for free, and yet I still spend money on there competitors products.

That should say something. And to all the people who think Vista is better, how many have spent more then a few minutes with OSX? I bet almost every one who thinks OSX is better has a very good understanding of MS OS's. That should tell you something too.

And yes, Steve Jobs is a douche-bag. He has a lot better vision then Mr Gates (I like what he did with NextStep), But he is no different in personality.

 


 That makes you the exception then, because the vast majority of mac users I know are arrogant pricks who tout the Mac's abilities to handle media editing and such but have never created a video or touched up a photo in their lives.  They just bought them because hating Microsoft is a trendy thing to do.



cebrian said:
@mafoo the mac preferences are not near as good as the control panel in windows, the preferences in quicktime give me a pain in the neck every time i try to wrestle with them in mac.. and i could go on and on.


I hate the exposé because if you are working and hover over the corners of the screen, it makes you stop what you are doing and takes over the computer... good thing you can get rid of it, i like all my windows having different space in the task bar in windows, i like being able to control tab my way through every window, i love the second mouse button and the scrolling wheel, which are now standard in the pc world and not so much in macs, I like being able to maximize my windows so i can concentrate on the program at hand and use the whole screen. And I don't mind viruses, I'm not stupid enough to fall for them, and I'm actually protected by antiviruses.

1: As you said it doesn't need to use corners. It can be a mouse click for expample. Its not a problem if it can be changed.

2: Apple tab does the exact same thing.

3: Standard in all macs sold. Macs have a scroll wheel that is both verticle and horizontal. Plus it does have a second mouse button built in. Check the preference, maybe they aren't so bad?

4: Um you can make your windows take up the whole screen.

 

And as for it taking all the joy out of tech savvy elitism. It is unix. Open a command line.