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Forums - Politics - Bernie Sanders confuses me

mofili said:
Geralt said:
Bernie Sanders is a wack job. The only reason hes saying these things is because a majority of the people in the country are poor and hes trying to buy votes rather than solve the real problems

But he´s literally trying to solve the real problems

They're all trying to solve problems. For all but, Bernie, though, they're solving personal problems.

 

Of not having enough power.



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haxxiy said:

I wouldn't say Bernie is more "brave" or "ideologically pure" than any other candidate. The fact is that "anti-estabilishment" candidates are basically irrelevant on large game politics, and have never been required to compromise towards any of their goals. Should Bernie get ellected - which he won't, because a candidate like him will be lolstomped by basically any Republican nominee - probably even Trump - he would be another Alexis Tsipras, unable to do anything even remotely ressembling his promisses and hated by two thirds of the populace.

Instead of promissing freebies for all, an old as molasses scheme to attract public support and of which the gullible, idealistic youth are specially prone to fell into, candidates should take a look on why:

- State subsides to public universities have been steadily falling, pushing tuition rates higher, even though the US has rising tax income and a stable percentage of its population on the young adult bracket for decades now. Where's the money, dear governors?

- Medical costs have spiraled so high with little return -lower than European life expectancies with twice the cost - meaning the country can't effectively pay for ample public healthcare, even when it already spends as much per capita on it as an European welfare state.

On the flip side, Bernie does support the recognition of the Armenian Genocide unlike basically every American president so far... even though he predictably turns a blind eye on the atrocities Israel commit against Palestinians. So I'd watch out for even more Israel support and military/financial help in his government.

 

Edit - of course he would lose against most nominees but he does have a good chance against this one here:

 

That's actually not true. In current polling he's beating every Republican nominee except Rubio, and that's before Rubio had his little malfunction at the debate the other night.



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Normchacho said:
haxxiy said:

I wouldn't say Bernie is more "brave" or "ideologically pure" than any other candidate. The fact is that "anti-estabilishment" candidates are basically irrelevant on large game politics, and have never been required to compromise towards any of their goals. Should Bernie get ellected - which he won't, because a candidate like him will be lolstomped by basically any Republican nominee - probably even Trump - he would be another Alexis Tsipras, unable to do anything even remotely ressembling his promisses and hated by two thirds of the populace.

Instead of promissing freebies for all, an old as molasses scheme to attract public support and of which the gullible, idealistic youth are specially prone to fell into, candidates should take a look on why:

- State subsides to public universities have been steadily falling, pushing tuition rates higher, even though the US has rising tax income and a stable percentage of its population on the young adult bracket for decades now. Where's the money, dear governors?

- Medical costs have spiraled so high with little return -lower than European life expectancies with twice the cost - meaning the country can't effectively pay for ample public healthcare, even when it already spends as much per capita on it as an European welfare state.

On the flip side, Bernie does support the recognition of the Armenian Genocide unlike basically every American president so far... even though he predictably turns a blind eye on the atrocities Israel commit against Palestinians. So I'd watch out for even more Israel support and military/financial help in his government.

 

Edit - of course he would lose against most nominees but he does have a good chance against this one here:

 

That's actually not true. In current polling he's beating every Republican nominee except Rubio, and that's before Rubio had his little malfunction at the debate the other night.

Shh... Don't let Fox News find out about that.



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thepurplewalrus said:

If you more than double the minimum wage and heavily tax corporations, won't that just cause people to lose jobs and the inflation rate to go way up?

Under the current maximize profit margins at costs paradigm, it could, but it doesn't have to. If a company chooses to not acknowledge that more people with more money should lead to more revenue (if they are good at what they do), then their increased wage costs should be more than offset by the increased customer revenue. Your concern is valid, however, because shareholders force companies ot maximize valuations and maintain "optimal" profit margins. This is usually realized by slashing overhead AKA laying workers off and demanding that remaining workers "pick up the slack." Notice how quick corporations are to demonize unions, the very same people that fought for the now long gone forty hour work week? This is why.



Teeqoz said:
Nettles said:

Everyone pays higher tax under Sanders and yet his numbers still don't add up.

Read this : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-02/why-bernie-sanders-has-raise-taxes-middle-class

The people who wrote that apparently didn't read Bernie's tax plans. the extra tax relatvie to income to cover healthcare will be paid by employees, not employers. And even your link admits that that is the biggest proportion of extra taxes. Now sure, yes, that will come at a slight expense to people's wages as well, but you are ignoring how much money people won't have to spend due to services being free or largely so. The average American household spends shittonnes on healthcare, doesn't really matter if that is paid through taxes or through normal bills, you pay the money either way. The difference is that this way you won't have to risk people slowly dying because they can't afford health insurance, etc.

Furthermore, people will save money on college, because community colleges will be free, and student debt will be easier to repay due to interest reform. So sure, people might pay more in taxes, but they'll pay a lot less in outside costs. I could find more examples on this. At the same time, ultra rich will bear proportionately more of the load than poor, and some important ways are closing stupid tax loopholes that corporations are using to hide money from the IRS.

As for some of his most expensive, they are neccesary either way (ie. infrastructure rebuilding). It's just that Bernie is the only one that isn't too much of a coward to adress it. Reality is that the US is getting to the point where maintaining their old infrastructure is becoming substantially more expensive than renewing it, so it has to be done. Wouldn't you want a president that actually recognizes that? Also renewing infrastructure has pretty much unanimously given strong economic returns, so with a long term perspective, the Us will end up making money on that.

blah blah blah.

 

those tax changes would cause many to immediatly default on their mortgage long before they ever get to see the benefits of "free college" not to mention and huge spending freeze by the wealthy and sigificant exedous to other countries.  also like fuck i'll ever trust that program because the next election could very well bring repeal the entire program.  in the mean time my retirment funds would crash for sure because the one thing the stock market hates is uncertainy and change.

bernie's plan is economic suicide for the entire world, not that bernie even understands there is a world outside the usa's boarders...



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Insidb said:
thepurplewalrus said:

If you more than double the minimum wage and heavily tax corporations, won't that just cause people to lose jobs and the inflation rate to go way up?

Under the current maximize profit margins at costs paradigm, it could, but it doesn't have to. If a company chooses to not acknowledge that more people with more money should lead to more revenue (if they are good at what they do), then their increased wage costs should be more than offset by the increased customer revenue. Your concern is valid, however, because shareholders force companies ot maximize valuations and maintain "optimal" profit margins. This is usually realized by slashing overhead AKA laying workers off and demanding that remaining workers "pick up the slack." Notice how quick corporations are to demonize unions, the very same people that fought for the now long gone forty hour work week? This is why.

what you decribed is inflation and it means that nobody's life actually got better.  doubling my wage doesn't mean shit if i also double my costs.



kitler53 said:
Teeqoz said:

The people who wrote that apparently didn't read Bernie's tax plans. the extra tax relatvie to income to cover healthcare will be paid by employees, not employers. And even your link admits that that is the biggest proportion of extra taxes. Now sure, yes, that will come at a slight expense to people's wages as well, but you are ignoring how much money people won't have to spend due to services being free or largely so. The average American household spends shittonnes on healthcare, doesn't really matter if that is paid through taxes or through normal bills, you pay the money either way. The difference is that this way you won't have to risk people slowly dying because they can't afford health insurance, etc.

Furthermore, people will save money on college, because community colleges will be free, and student debt will be easier to repay due to interest reform. So sure, people might pay more in taxes, but they'll pay a lot less in outside costs. I could find more examples on this. At the same time, ultra rich will bear proportionately more of the load than poor, and some important ways are closing stupid tax loopholes that corporations are using to hide money from the IRS.

As for some of his most expensive, they are neccesary either way (ie. infrastructure rebuilding). It's just that Bernie is the only one that isn't too much of a coward to adress it. Reality is that the US is getting to the point where maintaining their old infrastructure is becoming substantially more expensive than renewing it, so it has to be done. Wouldn't you want a president that actually recognizes that? Also renewing infrastructure has pretty much unanimously given strong economic returns, so with a long term perspective, the Us will end up making money on that.

blah blah blah.

 

those tax changes would cause many to immediatly default on their mortgage long before they ever get to see the benefits of "free college" not to mention and huge spending freeze by the wealthy and sigificant exedous to other countries.  also like fuck i'll ever trust that program because the next election could very well bring repeal the entire program.  in the mean time my retirment funds would crash for sure because the one thing the stock market hates is uncertainy and change.

bernie's plan is economic suicide for the entire world, not that bernie even understands there is a world outside the usa's boarders...

You really don't know what you are talking about.  

Sanders has proposed two tax plan changes to the middle class.
1.  Healthcare: Increases by .75% on top of the 1.50% we currently pay.  The advantage is your deductible costs hardly anything, and no copays, so your employer pays significantly less.   With the government being the only customer of healthcare, you can bet they'll demand to pay what other countries pay.  We pay far more for worse quality, which we rank 18th in while France is 1st, and pays half as much as us. 
2.  Paid family leave.  Pay $1.65 per week so parents can receive paid time off with a newborn for 90 days.  They'd still be able to work when they can if they wanted.

If you make under $250k a year your tax bracket stays the same.  So far that those are only increases he has suggested.  



On the point of making corporations pay taxes, we have studies that show that $21-32 TRILLION has been sheltered from taxation:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/07/23/super-rich-hide-21-trillion-offshore-study-says/#5b7f22c973d3
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/07/24/the-global-elite-may-be-hiding-32-trillion-in-offshore-tax-havens-but-the-best-solution-may-be-to-lower-their-tax-rates-instead-of-raising-them/#1145deab5422
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/03/obamas-change-1-get-81-income-gains-then-tax-shelter-21-32-trillion-bottom-90-lose-income.html

US corporations stash $1-1.5T/year, and there was a congressional study (if I recall correctly) that put the total US sheltered income at ~$17-19T, which is around or greater than the US national debt. In essence, if that money and corporations had actually been taxed at the highest marginal rate of ~45%, for the past 30 years or so, there would be no national debt. That's a very serious problem.

As far as the Sanders taxation plan is concerned, this is a helpful tool:
http://www.bernietax.com/#0;0



kitler53 said:
Insidb said:

Under the current maximize profit margins at costs paradigm, it could, but it doesn't have to. If a company chooses to not acknowledge that more people with more money should lead to more revenue (if they are good at what they do), then their increased wage costs should be more than offset by the increased customer revenue. Your concern is valid, however, because shareholders force companies ot maximize valuations and maintain "optimal" profit margins. This is usually realized by slashing overhead AKA laying workers off and demanding that remaining workers "pick up the slack." Notice how quick corporations are to demonize unions, the very same people that fought for the now long gone forty hour work week? This is why.

what you decribed is inflation and it means that nobody's life actually got better.  doubling my wage doesn't mean shit if i also double my costs.

Under the "profiteering" paradigm, yes, companies leverage the increased wages against the earners to raise prices to maintain margins. The inherent fallacy is that more people consuming more goods maintains the margins, because P=R-C still works just fine. Keep in mind that the annual, standard, living wage increase in the US is 3%, while the reported annual inflation rate is 3.21% (last year was reported "0.7%"), but the real inflation rate is around 10%. Ergo, wages are being and have been continually suppressed to maintain profit margins, not to prevent inflation. In essence, the threat of inflation has been a tool long-wielded to ensure that "worker productivity" is maximized.



Sharpryno said:
..

You really don't know what you are talking about.  

Sanders has proposed two tax plan changes to the middle class.
1.  Healthcare: Increases by .75% on top of the 1.50% we currently pay.  The advantage is your deductible costs hardly anything, and no copays, so your employer pays significantly less.   With the government being the only customer of healthcare, you can bet they'll demand to pay what other countries pay.  We pay far more for worse quality, which we rank 18th in while France is 1st, and pays half as much as us. 
2.  Paid family leave.  Pay $1.65 per week so parents can receive paid time off with a newborn for 90 days.  They'd still be able to work when they can if they wanted.

If you make under $250k a year your tax bracket stays the same.  So far that those are only increases he has suggested.  

no,. you don't get it.

single payer health care isn't what you make it out to be.  52k canadian's traveled to the us last year for their health care because in the single payer system when you're ailment is classified as non-life threatening you may not receive any treatment or be required to wait and absurd amount of time to recieve treatment and ussually time the most advanced treatments aren't covered in order to keep health care affordable.

american health care may be ranked poorly overall but those numbers are absurdly skewed by the cost of health care.  the kinds of treatments availible and the quality of those treatments are fantatisic if you can afford them.   and those absurd costs is why 10 years later other countries can take cheap generics and keep low cost health care.  without the united states health care would stagnat world wide.

 

and where the fuck do you get the idea that taxes only go up for those who make more than 250k?  bernies plan raises everyone's income tax by 2.2% regardless. and that 6.2% corporate tax isn't going to just come out of busniess's massive profit margins people seem to think every company makes,.. that increase will be passed on to america in the form of higher prices for the things you buy and job losses.  and the 34.2% captal gains tax fucks everyone as that is the kind of income 401ks are,.. your retirment plan just got pillaged and you'll probably end up on government welfare despite all your best efforts to prepare for retirement.

read up dude: http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2016/02/07/bernie-sanders-income-tax-brackets-how-much-would.aspx

suicide.

hilary for 2016,.. a realistic canidate for a real world.