By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Obama's Speech or Supreme Court on Gun Rights...which is more important?

I heard of this small town. The mayor ran on one thing: Guns. He promised to GIVE a gun and lessons to every resident of his town. WAIT! The funny part is coming still. After that happened crime essentially STOPPED! There were no criminals ballsy enough to take the off chance the person or home he was going to rob didn't have the gun with them.



Around the Network
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:

Personally, I see very little reason to own a gun and thus would probably never own a gun, but I think the reasoning behind gun control laws as being flawed; which explains why they tend not to work, and why gun violence tends to go up after a law is created.

Basically …

A criminal buys a gun because they intend to (or see the possibility to need to) commit the most violent crimes which carry the harshest punishments. Gun control laws add a marginal increase in the punishment over what they will already face and therefore don’t act as a deterrent to committing gun related crimes.

The irresponsible gun owner has far less concern for the consequences of their actions and therefore will (probably) not respect or follow the law anyways; they may also do remarkably stupid things to prevent the “Guvment” from finding their guns, like hiding them in their baby’s crib, which can increase gun accidents.

The responsible gun owner is the person who is the least likely to use a gun in a murder, most likely to prevent a violent crime with minimal force, and least likely to be involved in a gun accident is the only person who will actually obey the law.

Essentially, you’ve disarmed the people you would want to own guns while those you don’t want to have guns continue to have guns …

The problem is, having a gun for self protection actually increases your chance of being shot.  Lets say you get mugged at gun point, you pull out your gun in self protection - what does the mugger do now?

You're mugged at gun point, you don't have a gun - you just get mugged.

Gun laws are at least part of the reason why America has ridiculous amounts of gun related deaths, part of the problem is also cultural but gun laws are an issue. 

 

@Chris. You're an idiot.  

 

I would personally argue that the main reason there is so much gun violence in the United States is the distribution of wealth in the United States is one of the least equal in the world; it is similar to countries like Brazil, China and other countries where the wealthy need bodyguards to prevent them from being killed for the money they carry around with them. On top of this, the war on drugs has created an industry where the most violent person and dangerous people are rewarded ...

 

 



HappySqurriel said:

So, since we're dealing with happy-magic imaginary land we can just eliminate criminal's desires to do harm or break the law at all ...


Of course you can't, but you can eliminate one of the most deadly and destructive weapons they have available to do so.

As for the protection argument: There is signifficant statistical evidence that shows that owning a gun in no way lowers your chances of being the victim of a violent crime, and signifficantly increases the ratio of gun related deaths in and around the household.  As Rath said, trying to use your gun against someone using a gun on you is simply pure stupidity.  



Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:

Personally, I see very little reason to own a gun and thus would probably never own a gun, but I think the reasoning behind gun control laws as being flawed; which explains why they tend not to work, and why gun violence tends to go up after a law is created.

Basically …

A criminal buys a gun because they intend to (or see the possibility to need to) commit the most violent crimes which carry the harshest punishments. Gun control laws add a marginal increase in the punishment over what they will already face and therefore don’t act as a deterrent to committing gun related crimes.

The irresponsible gun owner has far less concern for the consequences of their actions and therefore will (probably) not respect or follow the law anyways; they may also do remarkably stupid things to prevent the “Guvment” from finding their guns, like hiding them in their baby’s crib, which can increase gun accidents.

The responsible gun owner is the person who is the least likely to use a gun in a murder, most likely to prevent a violent crime with minimal force, and least likely to be involved in a gun accident is the only person who will actually obey the law.

Essentially, you’ve disarmed the people you would want to own guns while those you don’t want to have guns continue to have guns …

The problem is, having a gun for self protection actually increases your chance of being shot. Lets say you get mugged at gun point, you pull out your gun in self protection - what does the mugger do now?

You're mugged at gun point, you don't have a gun - you just get mugged.

Gun laws are at least part of the reason why America has ridiculous amounts of gun related deaths, part of the problem is also cultural but gun laws are an issue.

 

@Chris. You're an idiot.

 

Edit: @Guy saying that this is an attack on your freedoms.

Most western countries with freedoms more pronounced than America have far more relaxed gun laws. Banning guns isn't going to kill America, it'd probably save Americans though. 


You had a midly reasonable argument until, "it'd probably save Americans though."

Also there is a reason people in a lot of southern states can leave there houses unlocked, because everyone knows there is a guy with a shotgun inside.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1
HappySqurriel said:

I would personally argue that the main reason there is so much gun violence in the United States is the distribution of wealth in the United States is one of the least equal in the world; it is similar to countries like Brazil, China and other countries where the wealthy need bodyguards to prevent them from being killed for the money they carry around with them. On top of this, the war on drugs has created an industry where the most violent person and dangerous people are rewarded ...


That's a perfectly reasonable argument for America's relatively high crime rate, but we can't just group crime and gun violence together. Gun violence is a type of crime, but it's not all crime, and most gun related deaths (as shown above) are simply idiots killing themselves and their families on accident.  Again, there is signifficant evidence that the ability to posess firearms raises homicide and suicide rates signifficantly.



Around the Network
Rath said:
De85 said:
naznatips said:
Eh, I've got no issues with owning guns for hunting. Hunting rifles are fine, but the only real REASON to own a pistol is to shoot humans. You can argue it's for self defense, but if no one else owned a pistol you wouldn't have anyone else to defend yourself from now would you?

Therein lies the problem. No amount of gun control ever has or ever can make criminals turn in their guns, so denying the law-abiding majority the right/ability to defend themselves and their homes from the lawless minority is unjust in my opinion.


As I said earlier, its best if they don't try and defend their homes as it increases their risk of being shot.

If you're faced with a criminal with a gun its best just to let him rob you than to try and go vigilante and end up dead.


 In the time it took you to post this I was adding to my other so see that also.  

 I agree 100% with the mugging part, nothing I own is worth my life, but I think burglary is a fundamentally different scenario.  First, your average burglar is most likely less gutsy than your average mugger because generaly burglars don't have to face anyone, they just grab the stuff and run.  Second, houses have multiple rooms, and if he's on the other side of the house you're not in immediate danger reaching for your gun, assuming it's close by.  You shouldn't go to him, but you'd be prepared if he came to you.   



naznatips said:
HappySqurriel said:

So, since we're dealing with happy-magic imaginary land we can just eliminate criminal's desires to do harm or break the law at all ...


Of course you can't, but you can eliminate one of the most deadly and destructive weapons they have available to do so.

As for the protection argument: There is signifficant statistical evidence that shows that owning a gun in no way lowers your chances of being the victim of a violent crime, and signifficantly increases the ratio of gun related deaths in and around the household.  As Rath said, trying to use your gun against someone using a gun on you is simply pure stupidity.  


 

http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/saf/GCAW290702.doc.pdf

"If gun control is supposed to reduce violent crime, then eventually this must bedemonstrated to be true, or gun control is no more than a hollow promise. However, mostcriminologists admit (albeit reluctantly) that there is very little empirical support for theclaim that laws designed to reduce general access to firearms reduce criminal violence(eg, Kleck 1997). Frequently, assertions that gun laws work turn out to be bogus. In Canada, the government uses the falling homicide rate as support for their claim that guncontrol laws are working. Unfortunately for this argument, the homicide rate has beenfalling even faster in the United States."

"The drop in the criminal violence is much more dramatic in the US than it is in Canada(Gannon 2001). Over the past decade, the Canadian homicide rate has declined about25%, but the violent crime rate has not changed. In the US during the same time period,both the homicide and the violent crime rates have plummeted by more than 40%. Wecan’t credit gun laws entirely with this success. In both countries, the aging populationhas helped bring down crime rates, and, in the US, long jail sentences for violentcriminals has also been effective."

"..."

"Nevertheless, gun laws have played an important role in reducing crime rates in the US.Since 1986, more than 25 states have passed new laws encouraging responsible citizensto carry concealed handguns. As a result, the numbers of armed Americans in malls andin their cars has grown to almost 3 million men and women. As surprising as it is to themedia, these new laws have caused violent crime rates to drop, including homicide rates.In his scholarly book, More Guns, Less Crime, Professor John Lott shows how violentcrime has fallen faster in those states that have introduced concealed carry laws than inthe rest of the US (Lott 2000). His study is the most comprehensive analysis of Americancrime data ever completed. He shows that criminals are rational enough to fear being shotby armed civilians"

"..."

"The destruction of the confiscated firearms cost Australian taxpayers an estimated $A500 million, and there has been no visible impact on violent crime. Robbery and armedrobbery rates continue to escalate. Armed robbery has increased 166% nationwide --jumping from 30 per 100,000 in 1996 to 50 per 100,000 in 1999 (AIC, 2001). Thehomicide rate has not declined, and the share of firearm homicide involving handguns hasdoubled in the past five years (Mouzos 2001). As in Great Britain and Canada, fewfirearms used in homicide are legally held; in 99/00 only 12 out of 65 (18%) wereidentified as being misused by their legal owner (Mouzos 2001)."



The length of this thread does seem to prove gun rights are an important issue to many.

If 'nerds' who never leave there homes care this much...you can imagine how big the issue really must be!



People are difficult to govern because they have too much knowledge.

When there are more laws, there are more criminals.

- Lao Tzu

It's a little off topic, but has anyone here read Freakonomics? The author has some pretty interesting ideas about the reason for the decline in crime in the 90's



The reality of the situation is this. The Constitution of the United States is not an inviolable document. Entire passages can be nullified, and amendments can be rescinded. The precedent stands for such occurrences and thus they are utterly legal. These are the consequences of the removal of legal slavery, and the right to get blind drunk legally.

The Constitution like any religious text is subject to either a literal or subjective interpretation. This goes towards the intent of the document to preserve the public good. Which is the purpose of all government well all good government. Many of the principles that we hold so dear are actually only subjective determinations. The constitution does not forbid after all state religion. However it is implied that there is to be a separation, because the freedom of religion would be impacted by a state religion enforcing religious laws. With which certain individuals might take exception.

The second amendment embodies an ideal which sadly is antiquated. The majority of citizens no longer have a legitimate need for firearms, and more specifically have no need for weaponry which could be described as instruments of mass terror. We have to be realistic at the time a single man with a gun was only so much of a threat. He had one gun one shot. Now we have weaponry that in short order can dispatch dozens of people.

There isn't actually a logical defense to highly effective firearms. Which by the way are not hunting weapons. The statistics bare out that they are poor defensive implements. Usually being more hazardous to the owner, his family, and innocent neighbors then to any burglar. They aren't even a effective anarchist statement since in a state of rebellion the government would have the incredible military edge over your average citizen. We have to rely on the integrity of our military to disobey orders contrary to the public good. Your assault pistol isn't going to be very effective against a fuel air bomb, or against a military sniper at two thousand yards.

I think you will find that the Supreme Court is going to uphold gun control bans, but it isn't the end of the world the real gun fanatics will go to Montana where it will probably be very legal for a very long time.