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Forums - General - Convention held in New York for Global Warming science..... the truth

epsilon72 said:
ph4nt said:
Whether or not it's real, no one can deny that the controversy has benefited us. Pollution has gone down, and hopefully soon i won't have to worry about going outside if it's too smoggy. I'll finally be able to see the mountains and sky the way it should be, without a glaze of smog covering it up.

Plus it's the only thing pushing us to get away from gas and oil, it's going to run out eventually and if it did and we had no other technology, we'd be screwed. The only time people react is when a problem is staring them right in the face, if we didn't have the global warming controversy, we wouldn't be finding alternative fuel sources until we found out we'd run out of oil in 5 years. Sad but true.

Huh?  It sure hasn't around here.  Where are you getting this information? 

Even though our oil supplies are finite, we definitely won't be running out in 5 years. 

 

 

It HAS gone down overall in the US, but in places like China, it's off the charts (goodbye Yangzee River Dolphin).

 



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ChichiriMuyo said:
Kasz216 said:
ChichiriMuyo said:
Astrodust said:
dtekdahl00 said:
Bias exists either way. You're either labled a fool for dissenting the common view, or you're hailed for buying into an ideology thats not scientific

There is no common view when it comes to global warming. It's not an issue like cigarettes cause cancer. The problem is that people are not educated on the issues and form oppinions.


The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations"

"While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with some findings of the IPCC,[8] the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change agree with the IPCC's main conclusions"

There is a goddamned concensus on the matter. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot or a liar, and anyone who rejects the idea outright is worse. Global Warming IS real and we DO have to fight it. People didn't think CFCs were destroying the environment in the 70s and, lo and behold, yes they were. It took until the 80's had almost ended to fix the problem, and the ozone layer is not expected to recover for an additional 35-85 years because of our innaction. Once again we are faced with a real threat, and it's time we enacted policy that will curb this threat and protect all of humanity from self distruction.

And if you think I'm a liar, tell me why the Pentagon agrees with me.

Really, why has the Pentagon created (but not published, in spite of leaks) documents that state that global climate change is happening, that it is human caused, and that it is the greatest threat to national security? And, moreso, why are they doing this in regards to a situation that certain people wish weren't true?

It's because global warming is real, and it is a much more real threat to our nation than any terrorist other than the fear mongers in the Bush administration. And perhaps even more of a threat than those constitution defiling scumbags.

Yes, even the Pentagon says that global warming is not only a real threat to our nation, but also a clear and imminent danger. And it should be treated like one. Stomped out of existence, left only as a memory of how the government improved our lives. Yet no one who has the power to do anything about it comes with the requisite balls to use that power for the good of all men. Because people are stupid, and can be convinced that anything is a lie, be it moon landings or global warming. All they have to do is want to believe, and a liar like our President can convince them that they were right when the evidence UNEQUIVICABLY* states otherwise.

*Note: This is the word of the international science community. They have said that human-influenced climate change is as real as the keyboard I'm pounding on now and the food you will eat at your next meal. Let us hope it is not your last.


There was a consensus on global cooling as well i believe.  Due to deforstation i believe.

The truth is... they've found some correlation, but no causation. Even then the correlation isn't exact enough to where i'd fully believe it was the case.

After all natural green house gas production is far far bigger then our own greenhouse production. The only arguements i've seen on this is that somehow nature can tell natural green house gasses from man made ones and selectivly filters out only the natural causes.


Obviously you haven't attended many science courses, then.  The environment is designed to sustain certain levels of greenhouse gasses and, like a liver being destroyed by an alcoholic, it can only soak up so much so fast, leaving the rest to deal damage until it can catch up with the "backstock." 

The carbon cycle is rather delicate, and relies on the ability of the oceans and soil to absorb carbon, and both of those reserves can only hold so much carbon before it become an issue.  We cannot force much more carbon into the oceans because it has an open exchange with the atmosphere.  Carbon can move rather freely between the two.  Plus, we'd probably kill sealife it we tried.  We can stick it in the ground, but if it's stored there it'll espace in any sort of natural disaster and if it's used in soil enriching projects (which actually help the environment twice over, and should be supported more heavily) then you can only use so much before the soil becomes saturated and will hold no more.

The Earth can process X amount of carbon, when we make Y more carbon enter the atmosphere than the Earth can process, Y more carbon stays in the air until the Earth can catch up to that amount.  It just keep building up on us, because we have knocked things out of balance and not given nature enough time to catch up.  And environmental scientists have already stated that even if we cut pollution to practically 0 today we may not feel the full effects of what we have done up through today for another 50 years.

Think about that.  Not only are we dealing with a precise, even sensitive, piece of machinary we don't fully understand (out planet), but the reprecussions of our misdeeds will almost certainly not be brought upon our heads but the heads of our grandchildren.

Regardless of whether or not the danger is as severe as THE PENTAGON says, when it takes 50 years to get results I'd say you're better off safe than extinct.


There is ZERO evidence that the environment was designed.



Fine, designed was a terrible choice of words.  I should have said "capable."  I don't believe in a god or any sort of creator, simply that the Earth isn't able to handle the nonsense we are putting it through.



You do not have the right to never be offended.

^lets not make this a religious debate obviously thats not how he meant it.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1
ChichiriMuyo said:
Astrodust said:
dtekdahl00 said:
Bias exists either way. You're either labled a fool for dissenting the common view, or you're hailed for buying into an ideology thats not scientific

There is no common view when it comes to global warming. It's not an issue like cigarettes cause cancer. The problem is that people are not educated on the issues and form oppinions.

There is a goddamned concensus on the matter.  Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot or a liar, and anyone who rejects the idea outright is worse.  Global Warming IS real and we DO have to fight it

You and others who support actions against global warming, have to understand that when people say

"Global warming is a myth!" ,

they shouldn't be taken literally, because what they're trying to express is that there is an agenda exaggerating the size and the risks with man-made global warming.

So, let's agree that there is a strong concensus that man-made global warming is a fact.

But then what? How big of a factor is the man-made part of the green house gas effect compared to natural reasons? Is there concensus on that? No.

And if and when there is concensus on how much man is contributing to the global warming trend we have, then what?

What are the consequences of the warming on the planet and on us? How many degrees will the global average temperature rise in 10, 30 and 50 years? How many meters will the ocean level rise, and in what time, and what will the consequences of that be on the US, the EU, the rest of the rich world, and the developing countries?

You don't have an idea, do you? No one has, and there are no facts about that, and certainly no concensus. But you have tons of all sorts of people almost hysterically crying "Global warming is a threat to mankind! We must act now! We aren't doing enough!" as if they had facts.

Stop this madness.



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Sqrl said:
steven787 said:
Sqrl said:
Just for the record we've had this debate on this site before and I believe the last time we had the debate it ended shortly after (but not necessarily due to) me pointing out that according to the alarmist's own data, even if we were to attribute all of the C02 increases over the last 250 years to mankind the worst case estimate you could create for C02 as a climate driver is that it (quoting from memory) was responsible for ~19% of the warming in the same time period. Keep in mind that assumes that ALL of the additional C02 from the last 250 years was man-made and gives literally zero credit to some of the largest contributers of C02 during that period...like the ocean and volcanoes etc... The actual numbers for mankind's yearly *net* contribution is less than 50% BTW.

The climate is changing, there is no doubt. But C02, much less C02 contributed by mankind, is not a major driver of that change.

I'll leave this discussion at that, I've done more research than probably the rest of the posters in this thread combined (exeggerating most likely, and I beg you not to take my word for it and think for yourself) on this topic and I feel extremely confident in my position. And for the record I am a fierce supporter of scientific research that has been thoroughly vetted such as evolution and the moon landings to borrow some examples from above. Anthropogenic global warming is simply no where near as vetted as those other examples and to suggest otherwise is an outright insult to the scientific process you claim to support. The fundamental concepts being left out in the cold are that a consensus is not equivalent to proof, and that correlation does not imply causation.

PS - You can't trust Mr Beck's movie any more than you can Mr Gore. Both are politicians and based on that alone should be greeted with extreme skepticism the moment they step out of the realm of politics, especially when they step into the realm of science.
Both movies have lengthy documentation on their factual errors to support that conclusion.
Not true.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/104/47/18866

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/technical-papers/paper-II-en.pdf

http://www.unep.org/Themes/climatechange/PDF/factsheets_English.pdf

 

If you google the topic you are going to get a bunch of websites that claim what you are saying... they are lying or wrong. This is the UN, the IPCC, the US government, and PNAS (the official science Journal of the UN).

The following is President Bush's press release announcing the switch in the traditional Republican to the international and scientific consesus on climate change.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/06/20010611-2.html

The Senate'sresponse to his budget request mentioning climate change

http://energy.senate.gov/public_new/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_Id=d1e428e9-75ea-413b-9e08-d3b65c7ff57f

 

Here are some other countries' research links or positions.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/climatechange/research/index.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/climat/studies.htm

http://en.g8russia.ru/g8/history/gleneagles2005/7/ (Russia's stance at the G8)

http://www.climate-change.ir/en/ or more specifically http://www.climate-change.ir/en/concept/#gg (Iran)

http://www.mct.gov.br/index.php/content/view/13986.html (Brazil)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ec.gc.ca%2Fclimate%2Fhome-e.html&ei=CQvNR5ORNJaYeoLJvQ4&usg=AFQjCNHQb8w627xTQq5edpgE1mrPL0yJaA&sig2=iG2wP-4hHnB_jHH748rNEQ (Canada)

http://cambio_climatico.ine.gob.mx/ccygob/ccygobingles.html (Mexico)

 

There are 174 signatories of the Kyoto Protocol. Many of them are developing nations and third world countries; this is important because it is internationally understood that anti-Greenhouse Gas emission regulation is bad for growth. They sign it any way, because it is needed.


You really need to examine your own sources.

First of all you sited 4 government sources with this line:

"If you google the topic you are going to get a bunch of websites that claim what you are saying... they are lying or wrong. This is the UN, the IPCC, the US government, and PNAS (the official science Journal of the UN)."

So the UN (political body), IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change...a committee that is part of a political body) , US government (political body), and PNAS(the science journal of a political body) all have no political agenda then? Truthfully your entire post boiled down to claiming I was wrong and provided nothing in the way of an argument but instead providing links to a bunch of sites with political ties..ironically the numbers I cited are built from numbers aspoused by groups like the ones you cited.

As for the signatories on the Kyoto Protocol, the reason those developing nations are signing up is because the Kyoto protocol is built as a global socialist program. The developing nations without huge emissions are able to sell their carbon credits to large nations like the US who would have to purchase them to avoid massive fines. In short its a huge boon for those countries not a hinderence.


Every source is going to have political ties.

Under Kyoto the US can't purchase credits, because they have not ratified it.

In regards to my post I am responding to your statement that more of the excess CO2 comes from natural sources and then assuming that people who "believe" in climate change as a result of human civilizations emmitting green house gases get all there information from movies.

Citing governments and international bodies is very different then citing politicians or corporately funded data. While still politically motivated they do not represent the polical or financial goals of one entity but the compromised and rationalized conclusion that best provides a guideline for future policy providing for the best interest of their constiuencies (the US population for the US and the body of world governments that make up the UN).

Simply tossing this data asside would be unwise. Here are links to some universities then, but I am guessing the MIT, Harvard, UCLA, Oxford, etc. are more politically motivated and biased than "NewScience", "JunkScience", "Heartland"or the numerous foundations started just to deny it.

Actually, I tried to find a major secular university to link to that is "against" climate change; I couldn't find one. Please link me to a major secular university that is against it. I would really like to see a trusted sources with a point of view against it.

(Edit: I took out a link, because I forgot the articles listed won't allow the public to access. I will find some more)

(Edit 2: Here are generic University links to their sites addressing Climate Change

http://web.mit.edu/globalchange/www/

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/topic/37/environment_and_climate_change.html

http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/ )



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

Slimebeast said:
 

You and others who support actions against global warming, have to understand that when people say

"Global warming is a myth!" ,

they shouldn't be taken literally, because what they're trying to express is that there is an agenda exaggerating the size and the risks with man-made global warming.

So, let's agree that there is a strong concensus that man-made global warming is a fact.

But then what? How big of a factor is the man-made part of the green house gas effect compared to natural reasons? Is there concensus on that? No.

And if and when there is concensus on how much man is contributing to the global warming trend we have, then what?

What are the consequences of the warming on the planet and on us? How many degrees will the global average temperature rise in 10, 30 and 50 years? How many meters will the ocean level rise, and in what time, and what will the consequences of that be on the US, the EU, the rest of the rich world, and the developing countries?

You don't have an idea, do you? No one has, and there are no facts about that, and certainly no concensus. But you have tons of all sorts of people almost hysterically crying "Global warming is a threat to mankind! We must act now! We aren't doing enough!" as if they had facts.

Stop this madness.

There are no 'facts' but there is general concensus that 1. The climate is changing, 2. That mankind is significantly adding to this climate change, 3. That said climate change is going to cause an increase in natural disasters and significant economic damage.

 

With those three things in mind, shouldn't we be doing what we can to stop it? I'm not claiming that climate change is going to cause a mass extinction (though it seems humans are keen on doing that through other means) but rather that its easier to spend billions of dollars on greenhouse gas reduction now than the trillions of dollars in the future, not to mention the cost in human lives. 

 



Rath said:
Slimebeast said:
 

You and others who support actions against global warming, have to understand that when people say

"Global warming is a myth!" ,

they shouldn't be taken literally, because what they're trying to express is that there is an agenda exaggerating the size and the risks with man-made global warming.

So, let's agree that there is a strong concensus that man-made global warming is a fact.

But then what? How big of a factor is the man-made part of the green house gas effect compared to natural reasons? Is there concensus on that? No.

And if and when there is concensus on how much man is contributing to the global warming trend we have, then what?

What are the consequences of the warming on the planet and on us? How many degrees will the global average temperature rise in 10, 30 and 50 years? How many meters will the ocean level rise, and in what time, and what will the consequences of that be on the US, the EU, the rest of the rich world, and the developing countries?

You don't have an idea, do you? No one has, and there are no facts about that, and certainly no concensus. But you have tons of all sorts of people almost hysterically crying "Global warming is a threat to mankind! We must act now! We aren't doing enough!" as if they had facts.

Stop this madness.

There are no 'facts' but there is general concensus that 1. The climate is changing, 2. That mankind is significantly adding to this climate change, 3. That said climate change is going to cause an increase in natural disasters and significant economic damage.

 

With those three things in mind, shouldn't we be doing what we can to stop it? I'm not claiming that climate change is going to cause a mass extinction (though it seems humans are keen on doing that through other means) but rather that its easier to spend billions of dollars on greenhouse gas reduction now than the trillions of dollars in the future, not to mention the cost in human lives. 

 


So your argument is theres a "general concensus" and there are no "facts?"



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1

I personally blame Al Gore. And Polar Bears. And anyone else who makes up global warming. No i don't that's a lie. I blame you. Yes, you. the one reading my comment as we speak. It's all your fault I' m sitting in Chicago in March with my lawn frozen, then flooded when the ice melts, then frozen when it freezes again. I WAN'T TO PLAY ON MY 9000$ Swing set!.



So, for all you skeptics out there, what do you have to say to the large, growing hole in the ozone layer? That just a natural part of the earth's evolution too, eh?

And for the one guy who pointed out ''Earth will be okay, it has a way of balancing itself out".

Well, yeah, unfortunately, in this case that ''balancing'' would be the near extinction of the human race..

And on a closing note, as far as global warming in general goes, I blame Wii Fit.



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