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Forums - Sony - Whoa!! Kojima: "Blu-ray Disc Not Big Enough for MGS4″

FJ-Warez on 03 March 2008
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
FJ-Warez said:
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
FJ-Warez said:
 

1.- First, audio is not "game", maybe 2/3 of the disc space is audio...

2.- What does the ingame control has to do with this discusion about the reason of the "50 gbs is not enough" statement???

3.- Theres a lot of values calculated for each frame, please, if you don't know how an engine works, stop make assumptions like this...

4.- Knobody has stated the opposite... and why you keep bringgin off topic things???

5.- In game videos are used to hide load times using very few resources, thats why I don't think they are going to use them, because so far the videos showed have a lot of quality, they look a lot better than just a ingame video...


1. Correction, as you saw in my edit, it's 2/5's of the disc space. Also, the audio can be counted as part of the game if it is used in the game.

2. Quality might suffer in actual gameplay than it does in-game video with no interaction at all. That's my point.

3. Then more values are calculated in the actual gameplay along with the frame value. You guys said yourselves the 360 and PS3 "can't handle 1080p." There might be some point between them where in-game video can be flawless and where more processing just degrades the quality. After all, the CELL does help out the GPU somewhat.

4. Because you brought up the whole "Quality doesn't match thing", I'm debunking this. My point in saying that is, the extra processing while actually playing the game might degrade the quality compared to the in-game videos.

5. There you go. If they're using very few resources to load, then they can be using a majority of those resources for the in-game rendering. If they can cut down the size of the area to only a small area they need for the actual video, not as much RAM will be taken up for graphics processing.

 

I'm not giving that as evidence to it being in-game, just giving you a reasonable doubt about the whole "It has to be prerendered because of the difference" thing. This is in 1080p, a much larger area could be loaded into the RAM when actually playing the game, and a lot more is going on to process while actually playing the game. All I'm saying is that quality might suffer somewhat when actually playing the game.

The "Quality is different" argument I don't think really holds water when considering those factors. Like I said, considering it's 1080p it might be easy to go from really good quality to worse quality. A larger area could be loaded into the RAM when playing the game so loading times are minimal compared to the in-game rendering. Last, a lot of extra values could be processed as well as the graphics and audio while actually playing the game.


This is pointless,... is more like "What do you want to be vs what he said and what we do think about it..."

He never said anything about ingame video, but clearly said how Sony is pushing for 1080 content to make the game unavaliable to fit in one DVD (He is talking about video, not sound).... MGS and any other game of the saga relies and a lot in cut scenes... the game is almost a movie, and he said how is Sony pushing to use 1080 content what makes you think he is going to use the ingame videos??? Clearly you don't want to believe it...

Second, the whole issue about the ingame videos, is this: "They are used to hide load times, they are made using existing data in the ram like models and textures, when you see any ingame video you are watching a lot of game content, thats the purpose, re-use existing data, thats how it works, thats why you can clearly see a big difference between in game videos and prerendered cut scenes..."

If you want to believe or not, thats another issue, but most of the people here agree with the FMV taking a lot of space... so far you haven't give us a "real" reason to believe the opposite...


1.- I'm not saying what I want it to be. He didn't say "the games are prerendered", he has been stressing that everything in there is in-game.

 

2.- So Sony is "forcing"(he hesitated at saying this) him to do 1080. What does that have to do with whether the videos are prerendered or in-game? You act like what he said in that is more important than anything else he's said. He's said all of it is in-game...is that worthless to you compared to what else he said?

3.- You say I'm saying this because it's what I want. But you seem to want the videos to be prerendered. You'r e basing this off the fact the he said Sony was "forcing" him to do 1080. Maybe Sony was just pushing HD content. Doesn't matter if it's prerendered or in-game. Now, let me stress this again SIXTY HOURS of UNCOMPRESSED audio. Do you realize just how large that is? As well as Video and Audio aren't the only data in the game. You create enough content, and it will build-up and become large. Maybe he was including this full quality audio into HD as that is often put in the HD push, surround sound and all.

4.- All Kojima said was that Sony was pushing HD content, and in NO WAY said that they were pushing for this so it wouldn't fit on DVD. You're saying 1080 can't be rendered in-game? It HAS to be prerendered? Nice logic. You even said right there, there are a TON of cutscenes in MGS, maybe all that data for in-game videos builds up. After all, there must be a lot of polygons for a game to look that realistic...the data would probably build up quite quickly. Clearly you don't want to believe that small things can build up.

5.- I know what in-game videos are. And I will say again, in a cutscene, you AREN'T doing anything. There are no values or a ton of extra stuff to process besides polygons, textures, and audio. No enemy AI is being handled. A bunch of stuff is going on during the game that is processed as well as the graphics. The in-game rendering is pre-written and pretty much linear from there while in-game so much different branches of things can happen. Don't tell me maxing out on processing doesn't degrade quality at all. The 1080p fact makes the difference much greater between the amount of processing.

Yes, an FMV takes up a lot of space. But building up of small things can create a result just as big. Think about all the different content. Just like spending small amounts of money can build up over time...data can to. Think about coupons, going shopping for food. You can end up saving $50 total on stuff you didn't save very much on in the first place. Small amounts can build up to huge amounts. An FMV isn't the only explanation.


1.- First, where does he state that "All the content is in game, there is no prerendered" ??? Link please...

2.- If sony is pushing HD content to a game, in order to make unavaliable to fit in a dvd what kind of 1080 content comes to your mind??? Audio??? No, lol, cuts scenes... thats the whole point, the power of the console, the br storage, and the HD era...

3.- I don't want one or the other, if the game is all about prerendered cut scenes or ingame videos, I don't care that much, but I want to be sure what kind of content is there, there is no point in claims like MGS4 is too much for the BR if the game is just full of prerendered cut scenes...

4.- Sony is pushing HD content (most likely prerendered cut scenes, in order to promote the BR and the HD), this way the game can not fit in to a DVD, what kind of world do you live to believe this wasn't planned???

5.- I haven't say that in game videos can not be rendered a 1080 or any game,in fact this would be the most logical aproach, but since the game is so huge, and the BR can't handle it, nothing makes me thing that they are in game... and so far, all the trailers look prerendered... maybe they are using in game models, but still there is a lot in the trailers that can't be done in real time...

6.- You are not doing anything, but the system is loading the next scene, even if that doesn't take so much power, it takes all your memory... so what is left for make a great in game cut scene???

7.- If you really believe that there is a way to make in game videos like prerendered cut scenes just because you are not doing anything or "building things", this is a pointless discussion...



By me:

Made with Blender + LuxRender
"Since you can´t understand ... there is no point to taking you seriously."
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Rath on 03 March 2008
CrazzyMan said:
Rath said:
CrazzyMan said:
So, WHO is NOT happy, that Kojima was able to USE/FILL whole 50GB blu-ray disc??? =)

Me. Why should I be happy that he managed to fill a disc? I'll be happy if he makes the game awesome but a games quality isn't measured in gigabytes.


ARE you NUTS??? It`s a METAL GEAR SOLID. Every Metal Gear Solid game is a MASTERPIECE. Have you finished any MGS game?

 


I own the original MGS but I could never bring myself to finish it as I always got horribly horribly bored. However I do not doubt that in their genre MGS games are indeed masterpieces, I am merely not a fan of the genre.

In any case I never claimed the game was going to be bad, I am sure it won't, but merely that the quality of the game will not be because it fills a Blu-Ray disc which I consider to be irrelevant to the games quality.



Stever89 on 03 March 2008
CrazzyMan said:
And why do I care? I don't.
Then why do you post in this thread? =)) You have some FACTS or what? =)) What the point.
And it's a music game for crying out loud! I doubt people really care that much about audio, so IF they are using uncompressed audio and IF it's taking up so much space, then it's not really all that smart of them.

It`s a Kojima, with every MGS game he pushes console to BEST experience at the time of game release. =)
You really shouldn`t worry about Kojima not being smart, Really. =))

Crazzy, what I dislike about you is that you turn everything into some kind of agument. I came into this thread to read it. You then posted asking who was happy that he was filling the disk. I replied saying that the real question should be "why should anyone care?" And then also added some statements that already had IF's in them. Then you turned it into a argument/discussion, and so I responded. I'm starting to think that anytime somebody replies to one of your threads that they're either attacking you or the PS3, or are trying to disagree with you in some way. I was not really doing either, and you turned it around on me and started disagreeing with me, even though I barely stated anything. 



akuma587 on 03 March 2008

Man, this thread has really degraded...



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

CrazzyMan on 03 March 2008

@Stever89,

You then posted asking who was NOT happy that he was filling the disk. I replied saying that the real question should be "why should anyone care?"
Where is the difference?



Every 5 seconds on earth one child dies from hunger...

2009.04.30 - PS3 will OUTSELL x360 atleast by the middle of 2010. Japan+Europe > NA.


Gran Turismo 3 - 1,06 mln. in 3 weeks with around 4 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Gran Turismo 4 - 1,16 mln. with 18 mln. PS2 on the launch.

Final Fantasy X - around 2 mln. with 5 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Final Fantasy X-2 - 2.4 mln. with 12 mln. PS2 on the launch.

 

1.8 mln. PS3 today(2008.01.17) in Japan. Now(2009.04.30) 3.16 mln. PS3 were sold in Japan.
PS3 will reach 4 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 25k.

PS3 may reach 5 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 50k.
PS2 2001 vs PS3 2008 sales numbers =) + New games released in Japan by 2009 that passed 100k so far

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Stever89 on 03 March 2008

^ You were the one that was questioning me? lol



Lone_Canis_Lupus on 03 March 2008
FJ-Warez said:
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
FJ-Warez said:
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
FJ-Warez said:
 

1.- First, audio is not "game", maybe 2/3 of the disc space is audio...

2.- What does the ingame control has to do with this discusion about the reason of the "50 gbs is not enough" statement???

3.- Theres a lot of values calculated for each frame, please, if you don't know how an engine works, stop make assumptions like this...

4.- Knobody has stated the opposite... and why you keep bringgin off topic things???

5.- In game videos are used to hide load times using very few resources, thats why I don't think they are going to use them, because so far the videos showed have a lot of quality, they look a lot better than just a ingame video...


1. Correction, as you saw in my edit, it's 2/5's of the disc space. Also, the audio can be counted as part of the game if it is used in the game.

2. Quality might suffer in actual gameplay than it does in-game video with no interaction at all. That's my point.

3. Then more values are calculated in the actual gameplay along with the frame value. You guys said yourselves the 360 and PS3 "can't handle 1080p." There might be some point between them where in-game video can be flawless and where more processing just degrades the quality. After all, the CELL does help out the GPU somewhat.

4. Because you brought up the whole "Quality doesn't match thing", I'm debunking this. My point in saying that is, the extra processing while actually playing the game might degrade the quality compared to the in-game videos.

5. There you go. If they're using very few resources to load, then they can be using a majority of those resources for the in-game rendering. If they can cut down the size of the area to only a small area they need for the actual video, not as much RAM will be taken up for graphics processing.

 

I'm not giving that as evidence to it being in-game, just giving you a reasonable doubt about the whole "It has to be prerendered because of the difference" thing. This is in 1080p, a much larger area could be loaded into the RAM when actually playing the game, and a lot more is going on to process while actually playing the game. All I'm saying is that quality might suffer somewhat when actually playing the game.

The "Quality is different" argument I don't think really holds water when considering those factors. Like I said, considering it's 1080p it might be easy to go from really good quality to worse quality. A larger area could be loaded into the RAM when playing the game so loading times are minimal compared to the in-game rendering. Last, a lot of extra values could be processed as well as the graphics and audio while actually playing the game.


This is pointless,... is more like "What do you want to be vs what he said and what we do think about it..."

He never said anything about ingame video, but clearly said how Sony is pushing for 1080 content to make the game unavaliable to fit in one DVD (He is talking about video, not sound).... MGS and any other game of the saga relies and a lot in cut scenes... the game is almost a movie, and he said how is Sony pushing to use 1080 content what makes you think he is going to use the ingame videos??? Clearly you don't want to believe it...

Second, the whole issue about the ingame videos, is this: "They are used to hide load times, they are made using existing data in the ram like models and textures, when you see any ingame video you are watching a lot of game content, thats the purpose, re-use existing data, thats how it works, thats why you can clearly see a big difference between in game videos and prerendered cut scenes..."

If you want to believe or not, thats another issue, but most of the people here agree with the FMV taking a lot of space... so far you haven't give us a "real" reason to believe the opposite...


1.- I'm not saying what I want it to be. He didn't say "the games are prerendered", he has been stressing that everything in there is in-game.

 

2.- So Sony is "forcing"(he hesitated at saying this) him to do 1080. What does that have to do with whether the videos are prerendered or in-game? You act like what he said in that is more important than anything else he's said. He's said all of it is in-game...is that worthless to you compared to what else he said?

3.- You say I'm saying this because it's what I want. But you seem to want the videos to be prerendered. You'r e basing this off the fact the he said Sony was "forcing" him to do 1080. Maybe Sony was just pushing HD content. Doesn't matter if it's prerendered or in-game. Now, let me stress this again SIXTY HOURS of UNCOMPRESSED audio. Do you realize just how large that is? As well as Video and Audio aren't the only data in the game. You create enough content, and it will build-up and become large. Maybe he was including this full quality audio into HD as that is often put in the HD push, surround sound and all.

4.- All Kojima said was that Sony was pushing HD content, and in NO WAY said that they were pushing for this so it wouldn't fit on DVD. You're saying 1080 can't be rendered in-game? It HAS to be prerendered? Nice logic. You even said right there, there are a TON of cutscenes in MGS, maybe all that data for in-game videos builds up. After all, there must be a lot of polygons for a game to look that realistic...the data would probably build up quite quickly. Clearly you don't want to believe that small things can build up.

5.- I know what in-game videos are. And I will say again, in a cutscene, you AREN'T doing anything. There are no values or a ton of extra stuff to process besides polygons, textures, and audio. No enemy AI is being handled. A bunch of stuff is going on during the game that is processed as well as the graphics. The in-game rendering is pre-written and pretty much linear from there while in-game so much different branches of things can happen. Don't tell me maxing out on processing doesn't degrade quality at all. The 1080p fact makes the difference much greater between the amount of processing.

Yes, an FMV takes up a lot of space. But building up of small things can create a result just as big. Think about all the different content. Just like spending small amounts of money can build up over time...data can to. Think about coupons, going shopping for food. You can end up saving $50 total on stuff you didn't save very much on in the first place. Small amounts can build up to huge amounts. An FMV isn't the only explanation.


1.- First, where does he state that "All the content is in game, there is no prerendered" ??? Link please...

2.- If sony is pushing HD content to a game, in order to make unavaliable to fin in a dvd what kind of 1080 content comes to your mind??? Audio??? No, lol, cuts scenes...

3.- I don't want one or the other, if the game is all about prerendered cut scenes or ingame videos, I don't care that much, but I want to be sure what kind of content is there, there is no point in claims like MGS4 is too much for the BR if the game is just full of prerendered cut scenes...

4.- Sony is pushing HD content (most likely prerendered cut scenes, in order to promote the BR and the HD), this way the game can not fit in to a DVD, what kind of world do you live to believe this wasn't planned???

5.- I haven't say that in game videos can not be rendered a 1080 or any game,in fact this would be the most logical aproach, but since the game is so huge, and the BR can't handle it, nothing makes me thing that they are in game... and so far, all the trailers look prerendered... maybe they are using in game models, but still there is a lot in the trailers that can't be done in real time...

6.- You are not doing anything, but the system is loading the next scene, even if that doesn't take so much power, it takes all your memory... so what is left for make a great in game cut scene???

7.- If you really believe that there is a way to make in game videos like prerendered cut scenes just because you are not doing anything or "building things", this is a pointless discussion...


 1. I didn't really mean everything...but at E3 when he first showed off the epic preview. He said himself that it was all in-game rendered and NOT prerendered...or were you not paying attention to E3?

2. HD doesn't mean prerendered ;) In-game rendered videos can be in 1080p. The definition of HD isn't "prerendered videos"

3. Or if most of it is in-game rendered videos. MGS is known to have a lot of cutscenes anyway.

4. You seem to think that Sony+asking Kojima to make the game 1080p=prerendered videos. Just because they're promoting HD doesn't automatically mean "Z0MG!! PR3R3ND3RD!!!" They are pushing HD content, it NO WAY(like I said before) in that article did Kojima say that Sony was doing so for it not to fit on DVD. He just said it's in 1080p and the game won't fit on a DVD. Didn't say Sony made him do it so it wouldn't fit on DVD.

5. Ok, this doesn't seem to be getting through to you AT ALL. For the third time SIXTY, I repeat SIXTY HOURS, again 3600 MINUTES...once again 216000 SECONDS of UNCOMPRESSED, not sized down in ANY way AUDIO!! This is going to take up a HUGE amount of disc space. As well was a lot of other content built up on the disc. You come to the "logical" conclusion that it "has" to be rendered videos taking up all that space. Why can't I come up with the logical conclusion that audio is taking up a lot of space from the fact that they're leaving out foriegn audio tracks and only leaving the ones with that regions language in it? It's also not like in-game video is only 1kb, built up over time it will be huge.

6. But you also have nothing to support the fact that that time is actually being used for loading ;)

7. What if the development team have just really utilized and optimized the PS3's power for the game? Ever think of that? 360 and PS3 games are looking really nice afterall. My point is prerendered videos isn't the only logical explanation for all the space. They have left a lot of stuff uncompressed to take up a lot of space...which builds up.



PSN: Lone_Canis_Lupus

akuma587 on 03 March 2008

Seriously dudes, delete some of the text if you are going to quote a quote that is quoted already.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

CaptainPrefrences on 03 March 2008

this means that it cant possibly either way go to xbox 360. anyway kojima or w/e said that already



eab on 03 March 2008

Ocarina of Time was 29 megabytes. xD