Soriku said:
DélioPT said:
I gave you that NT quote to show you that, in regards to Justice, it still existed in the new NT aswell. Nothing changed and nothing has changed to this day.
Ultimatums? I don`t think you realize what Jesus was actually doing. When Jesus said those things, He said as a warning or in a form of foretelling what would happen. It`s the truth and not a threat or something like that. Who do you think all the things that God or God in Jesus did help?
I`m sorry, but i`m not discussing this Testament or that Testament. I`m talking about God. The Amalekites story already showed that if Saul had done what God told him to do, the Jews would be safe from them, but seeing as he went and decided by himself, he put the Jews in danger if extermination.
"In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: 5 “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.’”
All punishment and no mercy, right? There are other passages where people asked for forgiveness and it was given. Read how Lot appealed to God`s mercy and the number of people worthy of salvation kept going down. Also, the passage of the bronze snake (or Jesus in the OT): Numbers 21:4-9
Look closely and you will see that the OT is also filled with passages of forgiveness.
"What you're saying here is that might makes right." No, that`s not what i was saying. The mistake you made, with all due respect, is that you made yourself the center of what is right and wrong, despite not beeing the creator of morality or even anything that exists. That applies not just to you but to everyone, every single human, btw. By doing that you are making yourself equal to God or treating and thinking of Him as another human like you. We are not equal to God. Actually, that`s exactly what the serpent wanted from Adam and Eve.
When people kill in self defense or to save other, people accept that because there was no evil behind those actions. So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be. If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included.
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Jesus' whole deal is "believe in me or you're kinda screwed". How is this not an ultimatum? You can mask this as a warning all you want, but in the end it's God who delivers judgment. So he's warning you about a harsh punishment he himself will deliver and a "trial" you're forced to undertake.
"The mistake you made, with all due respect, is that you made yourself the center of what is right and wrong, despite not beeing the creator of morality or even anything that exists."
Yes because a being who commands stuff like this is truly the ultimate source of morality:
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24 If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13
If someone tried to follow the Old Testament to a letter, they'd be in jail right now. This is because we have a higher moral standard than the people who created this God.
"So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be."
This is an excuse. I already made this clear for you up above. "Remember what Amalek did to you, on the way when you were leaving Egypt". God clearly states that they're going to blot out Amalek in the full quote for what they did to the Israelites leaving Egypt. No other reason is give.
"If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included."
The writers didn't see God as evil. Readers clearly can though.
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It`s not a ultimatum. When you get warned that things you can or might do will lead away from God, then, although it is indeed God that delivers His justice, it`s also true that you are the one who ignored His ways and set yourself for said punishment. You reap what you saw.
How is this an ultimatum.
Trial?
You serve who you decide to serve and you call that a trial? As i said above, God does judge you but for the things you chose for yourself. You are free to do what you want, so He will give you exactly what you wanted.
Exodus 21:15
Some versions use the word smite. Although the very purpose seems to reinforce the dignity and authority of the parent or parents. Not to mention the evil behind those intentions.
Exodus 21:15
Basically, don`t desecrate that which is holy. There´s no mixing of purity and impurity, as it brings "death" to the one who does that.
Exodus 22:24
This is the context: ""If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry; 24and My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless."
Exodus 20:13
God created man and woman. Gave them life and the power to create life. Life that is gone when two of the same sex try to become one.
Man and woman create life, 2 man or 2 woman don`t create life, they end it.
"If someone tried to follow the Old Testament to a letter, they'd be in jail right now. This is because we have a higher moral standard than the people who created this God."
No we don`t. Unless someone else created morality or goodness, for that matter, no we don`t.
The things you find in the OT were there for a reason. When Jesus came, some things changed and here`s why:
"Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
See those highlighted quotes above?
God put us above Himself for our salvation without us even asking for it. He allowed things that He didn`t like because the way people were at that time, not because He didn`t care.
All those laws, rules you think are immoral were meant to not let impurity take the best of them, until they were ready for change.
I`ll say it again then. Saul`s mistakes put the Jewish people in danger of extermination. Your idea of mercy would also have put them in danger of exermination.
God had already that they would meet such fate, He gave time and then He remembered the Israelits of the consequences of such actions.
That`s the whole story, not just a specific quote that doesn`t show the whole thing.
But here`s the full quote: "Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt, 18how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God" - Don`t ignore this part as it remembers His people another mistake Amalek made.
It was a message for everyone to listen to. And i mean everyone.
"The writers didn't see God as evil. Readers clearly can though."
I can also see the exact moment when someone murders another person and jump to the conclusion that the killer is evil. I can even hear about it.
But that`s not enough, is it?
Readers will get it wrong when they don`t try to understand the reasons behind God`s actions, when they think they morally better than God when they didn`t even create morality or don`t care enough for the dangers of impurity and it`s consequences, not to forget that there are consequences for your actions, good or bad.