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Forums - Politics Discussion - Religious Children Have Difficulty Distinguishing Fact From Fiction

Soundwave said:

It's not even the "being created the universe" bit that's hard to believe objectively (though who says any of mankind's religons are even close on who/what that being(s) is) ... it's the dozens (hundreds?) of other laughably phony stories and non-sensical "rules" in the bible that make it hard to take seriously.

Yep, they're as believable as "the universe was created by a pink unicorn" that I made up earlier in this thread.



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Bet with Xander XT: 

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Me!

padib said:
DarkWraith said:
amp316 said:

A being created the universe.

Everything was created by an atom that appeared out of nowhere exploding and created the universe.

Which is fact and which is fiction? I'll let you decide which sounds more fictional.

Someone missed science class.

You must think you're so funny.



It seemed more appropriate than typing a wall of text correcting a strawman. Concision is my forte.

padib said:
DarkWraith said:

It seemed more appropriate than typing a wall of text correcting a strawman. Concision is my forte.

Concision is good.

I missed the strawman though, but you seem so sure it is one. That presumption is something I dislike about atheists often.

What about his description about the big bang was a strawman and what was false about it?

I don't necessarily pretend to know too much about the big bang, but it would help if you could describe where you thought his post deserved to be discredited so casually.

The big bang didn't result from a single atom going supernova... -__-



Soriku said:


It's exploitation. Exploitation can have very negative connotations. But it doesn't matter either way...

God and Israel show they're not any better than the Amalekites by deciding to kill them all. Again, I don't believe the Bible is very consistent. The Old Testament god doesn't care about "turning the other cheek" in the same way Jesus does. I believe the authors of the Gospels had different ideas and a different standard of morals. Even if God decides to show mercy later with Jesus it doesn't excuse his OT personality and commands.


You are looking at what they did and not at why they did. Not just that, you are treating God like He was equal to you or you equal to Him. Believer or not, i don`t think that`s a fair position.

God is Jesus. How could they have different behaviours?
You should read the Bible instead of quotes here and there, because you really are missing the big picture.
There a few differences between the OT and the NT, but those exist because of Jesus, like the case of the divorce (actually tha moment basically explains why some things took their time to change).
In what concerns mercy and punishment, God always showed mercy before the punishments (with Amalekites, God showed mercy for decades, before putting an end to them) and those even ocorred during Jesus' life:

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” - Luke 13

God was always merciful during the OT, the problem was that there was too much evil and wickedness aswell. The NT doesn`t focus so much on the history of the jewish people but more on Jesus and the apostles life after Jesus.



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Soriku said:
DélioPT said:


You are looking at what they did and not at why they did. Not just that, you are treating God like He was equal to you or you equal to Him. Believer or not, i don`t think that`s a fair position.

God is Jesus. How could they have different behaviours?
You should read the Bible instead of quotes here and there, because you really are missing the big picture.
There a few differences between the OT and the NT, but those exist because of Jesus, like the case of the divorce (actually tha moment basically explains why some things took their time to change).
In what concerns mercy and punishment, God always showed mercy before the punishments (with Amalekites, God showed mercy for decades, before putting an end to them) and those even ocorred during Jesus' life:

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” - Luke 13

God was always merciful during the OT, the problem was that there was too much evil and wickedness aswell. The NT doesn`t focus so much on the history of the jewish people but more on Jesus and the apostles life after Jesus.


God is all about smiting people in the OT. Here is another classic example of his Divine Mercy™.

Then he [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria. - 2 Kings 23:25.

God got nerfed in the NT in the form of Jesus. I just think Jesus is a bad retcon, trying to show that this vengeful god is actually supposed merciful. I almost don't consider them the same character. Although Jesus does like his ultimatums.

"you are treating God like He was equal to you or you equal to Him. Believer or not, i don`t think that`s a fair position." This is complete bullshit. What you're saying here is that might makes right.  I suppose if a president of a country like Obama decided to one day drop a bomb for no great reason or command a school shooting, it would be more acceptable than if some random citizen did it. That's not how it works, and it really doesn't matter if it was a god's actions. Imagine if we replaced "God" here with "Israel's general", and this general ordered a genocide to get back at the Amalekites. I somehow don't believe religious folk would be as lenient in their interpretation.

We're discussing the Old Testament here, so how about you show examples from the Old Testament justifying his actions, instead of just relying on the New?

I gave you that NT quote to show you that, in regards to Justice, it still existed in the new NT aswell. Nothing changed and nothing has changed to this day.

Ultimatums? I don`t think you realize what Jesus was actually doing. When Jesus said those things, He said as a warning or in a form of foretelling what would happen. It`s the truth and not a threat or something like that.
Who do you think all the things that God or God in Jesus did help?

I`m sorry, but i`m not discussing this Testament or that Testament. I`m talking about God.
The Amalekites story already showed that if Saul had done what God told him to do, the Jews would be safe from them, but seeing as he went and decided by himself, he put the Jews in danger if extermination.

"In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”

Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.’”

All punishment and no mercy, right?
There are other passages where people asked for forgiveness and it was given. Read how Lot appealed to God`s mercy and the number of people worthy of salvation kept going down.
Also, the passage of the bronze snake (or Jesus in the OT): 
Numbers 21:4-9

Look closely and you will see that the OT is also filled with passages of forgiveness.

"What you're saying here is that might makes right."
No, that`s not what i was saying. The mistake you made, with all due respect, is that you made yourself the center of what is right and wrong, despite not beeing the creator of morality or even anything that exists. That applies not just to you but to everyone, every single human, btw.
By doing that you are making yourself equal to God or treating and thinking of Him as another human like you.
We are not equal to God.
Actually, that`s exactly what the serpent wanted from Adam and Eve.

When people kill in self defense or to save other, people accept that because there was no evil behind those actions. So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be.
If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included.



DélioPT said:

When people kill in self defense or to save other, people accept that because there was no evil behind those actions. So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be.
If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included.

Amen



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Soriku said:
DélioPT said:

I gave you that NT quote to show you that, in regards to Justice, it still existed in the new NT aswell. Nothing changed and nothing has changed to this day.

Ultimatums? I don`t think you realize what Jesus was actually doing. When Jesus said those things, He said as a warning or in a form of foretelling what would happen. It`s the truth and not a threat or something like that.
Who do you think all the things that God or God in Jesus did help?

I`m sorry, but i`m not discussing this Testament or that Testament. I`m talking about God.
The Amalekites story already showed that if Saul had done what God told him to do, the Jews would be safe from them, but seeing as he went and decided by himself, he put the Jews in danger if extermination.

"In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”

Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.’”

All punishment and no mercy, right?
There are other passages where people asked for forgiveness and it was given. Read how Lot appealed to God`s mercy and the number of people worthy of salvation kept going down.
Also, the passage of the bronze snake (or Jesus in the OT): 
Numbers 21:4-9

Look closely and you will see that the OT is also filled with passages of forgiveness.

"What you're saying here is that might makes right."
No, that`s not what i was saying. The mistake you made, with all due respect, is that you made yourself the center of what is right and wrong, despite not beeing the creator of morality or even anything that exists. That applies not just to you but to everyone, every single human, btw.
By doing that you are making yourself equal to God or treating and thinking of Him as another human like you.
We are not equal to God.
Actually, that`s exactly what the serpent wanted from Adam and Eve.

When people kill in self defense or to save other, people accept that because there was no evil behind those actions. So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be.
If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included.


Jesus' whole deal is "believe in me or you're kinda screwed". How is this not an ultimatum? You can mask this as a warning all you want, but in the end it's God who delivers judgment. So he's warning you about a harsh punishment he himself will deliver and a "trial" you're forced to undertake.

"The mistake you made, with all due respect, is that you made yourself the center of what is right and wrong, despite not beeing the creator of morality or even anything that exists."

Yes because a being who commands stuff like this is truly the ultimate source of morality:

A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17

Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14

If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

If someone tried to follow the Old Testament to a letter, they'd be in jail right now. This is because we have a higher moral standard than the people who created this God.

"So you see, there might just be reasons that you don`t know of, despite what they might seem to be."

This is an excuse. I already made this clear for you up above. "Remember what Amalek did to you, on the way when you were leaving Egypt". God clearly states that they're going to blot out Amalek in the full quote for what they did to the Israelites leaving Egypt. No other reason is give.

"If there was even an ounce of evil in God there wouldn`t even be a Bible and everything that is written on it, would never had happened. Jesus death included."

The writers didn't see God as evil. Readers clearly can though.

It`s not a ultimatum. When you get warned that things you can or might do will lead away from God, then, although it is indeed God that delivers His justice, it`s also true that you are the one who ignored His ways and set yourself for said punishment. You reap what you saw.
How is this an ultimatum.

Trial?
You serve who you decide to serve and you call that a trial? As i said above, God does judge you but for the things you chose for yourself. You are free to do what you want, so He will give you exactly what you wanted.


Exodus 21:15
Some versions use the word smite. Although the very purpose seems to reinforce the dignity and authority of the parent or parents. Not to mention the evil behind those intentions.

Exodus 21:15
Basically, don`t desecrate that which is holy. There´s no mixing of purity and impurity, as it brings "death" to the one who does that.

Exodus 22:24
This is the context: ""If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry; 24and My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless."

Exodus 20:13
God created man and woman. Gave them life and the power to create life. Life that is gone when two of the same sex try to become one.
Man and woman create life, 2 man or 2 woman don`t create life, they end it.

"If someone tried to follow the Old Testament to a letter, they'd be in jail right now. This is because we have a higher moral standard than the people who created this God."
No we don`t. Unless someone else created morality or goodness, for that matter, no we don`t.
The things you find in the OT were there for a reason. When Jesus came, some things changed and here`s why:

"Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

See those highlighted quotes above?
God put us above Himself for our salvation without us even asking for it. He allowed things that He didn`t like because the way people were at that time, not because He didn`t care.
All those laws, rules you think are immoral were meant to not let impurity take the best of them, until they were ready for change.

I`ll say it again then. Saul`s mistakes put the Jewish people in danger of extermination. Your idea of mercy would also have put them in danger of exermination.
God had already that they would meet such fate, He gave time and then He remembered the Israelits of the consequences of such actions.
That`s the whole story, not just a specific quote that doesn`t show the whole thing.
But here`s the full quote: "
Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt, 18how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God" - Don`t ignore this part as it remembers His people another mistake Amalek made.
It was a message for everyone to listen to. And i mean everyone.

"The writers didn't see God as evil. Readers clearly can though."
I can also see the exact moment when someone murders another person and jump to the conclusion that the killer is evil. I can even hear about it.
But that`s not enough, is it?
Readers will get it wrong when they don`t try to understand the reasons behind God`s actions, when they think they morally better than God when they didn`t even create morality or don`t care enough for the dangers of impurity and it`s consequences, not to forget that there are consequences for your actions, good or bad.



Soriku said:


OK let's post the defintion of ultimatum.

"a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations."

Seems similar to what Jesus is enforcing. If you don't comply with him, relations break down and you're probably sent to hell.

It's not exactly fair either when God never reveals himself, unless you're one of the people who claim that Jesus came down and showed you the light or whatever. Gee, I wonder what's the holdup for everyone else? The process seems rigged.

Nobody created morality. Morality is a subjective set of standards and based on the time period and culture, nothing more. We are absolutely more moral now than people in the past, unless you can point to laws in our justice system where cursing your parents and working on the Sabbath will have you put to death. Unfortunately homosexuals can be executed in some backwards-ass Middle Eastern countries, but overall this is not a standard in most.

>Exodus 21:15

How is it evil to lash out at your parents? Disrespectful sure, but it's not worth putting those children to death. Now that is evil. I doubt many people even followed this rule to begin with, because which child doesn't lash out or "curse" their parents at some point in their life? There would be no people left if all those children were put to death.

>Exodus 21:15

How are you desecrating what is holy by working? Just like the rule above, nobody actually gives a damn about it. No one is going to be put to death by working 7 days a week.

>Exodus 22:24

Killing someone for "afflicting" a widow or orphan seems a wee bit harsh to me. This is definitely something that ought to be handled by a justice system.

On another note I do find this passage directly above that one amusing:

"He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed."

Nobody really does sacrifices anymore, but I wonder why God isn't destroying people in other religions (harsh) for worshipping other gods? Assuming he exists of course.

>Exodus 20:13

You don't end a life by not giving birth to it. By that logic, every man is a mass murderer considering how much sperm gets wasted per ejaculation. And I suppose if you're not constantly having sex, you're also "ending" lives because you're not giving birth to anyone. You know what does end lives though? The execution of homosexuals.

---

Jesus didn't really let the divorces slide. He's still saying that anyone who divorces and marries someone else is adultering. Not much of a privelege.

The Israelites tried to commit genocide not once, but twice. On the other hand the Amalekites captured people; they didn't command an extermination like God did.

David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, and had taken captive the women and everyone else in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way. - 1 Samuel 30:1-2

"
I can also see the exact moment when someone murders another person and jump to the conclusion that the killer is evil. I can even hear about it.
But that`s not enough, is it?
Readers will get it wrong when they don`t try to understand the reasons behind God`s actions, when they think they morally better than God when they didn`t even create morality or don`t care enough for the dangers of impurity and it`s consequences, not to forget that there are consequences for your actions, good or bad."

Of course it's not enough. You need context. The context is clear though, and it sure doesn't paint God in a positive light. You don't need to have created morality to understand what seems right and wrong, or excessive. Stop asserting that please. What you're calling impurity is also a stretch.

In human terms, when you brake the law you pay the price for breaking the law. But when Jesus or God say that if you do something that will bring you harm, punishment and even death, those things will indeed come, you see evil in that?
I call it being your friend by letting you know where evil lies and what will happen if you take part in it.

God never reveals Himself?
What do you think you are made of, if not of Him? You know good or bad.
And who told you that He doesn`t reveal Himself? When Jesus was alive and did what He did there were still people who didn`t care or abandoned Him.
Faith comes from the heart not from outside of you.

Unless someone created values out of nothing, they are part of us.
What humans like to do is mess with them and adapt them to their needs or desires. They are far from being subjective.
We are no even close to being more moral than others, be it that time or any other. Until people stop sinning, it`s pointless to try and judge others.

All those passages bring out the evil in people`s actions and worst than that, the desire to kill and overthrown. Things that you ignored.
Putting things in perspective, you are with either God and you get all that which is of God (the good) or you are with the devil, and then you get that which is of him (the bad). There`s no mixing of good and evil, they are separated - which is something the Bible shows from beggining to end.

Read again the Exodus 22:24 passage, because you didn`t read it correctly. He punishes none, but the one that sinned.
The passage of the sacrifice: you can`t serve two gods at the same time. If He is Life, what do you expect when you sacrifice to death, life?
Sacrifice was, and still is, to redeem sins, to consacrate something so that God may be a part of it and bless it. That`s why Jesus died, so that God and men could be one again - the reason for the change in divorce, btw.

"You don't end a life by not giving birth to it"
It`s not what i said. I wasn`t talking about this or that life, but humanity in general. Human life would end, if it rested in the shoulders of homosexuality. Also: “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,[a] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[b]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.
God is only one truth, not many.

Why do you think they spared them? For the goodness of their hearts, after attacking the weak one when they left egypt, after attacking them again and again?
Don`t forget that they kept on killing because Saul decided to be "merciful". He failed because he didn`t listen to God; he thought he knew better.

"You don't need to have created morality to understand what seems right and wrong, or excessive. Stop asserting that please. What you're calling impurity is also a stretch."
No, you need to be morality, Justice, purity and goodness to know what is right and fair.



Soriku said:


If you break the law, at worst you get a life sentence. In Christianity it's an eternal one. Some of the laws God put down certainly won't always bring you harm or death like breaking the Sabbath.

"What do you think you are made of, if not of Him?"

This is an assertion of one of many religions. It's not very convincing. Jesus also came down 2000+ years ago, and there's not much purporting hat he was the Son of God beyond the Gospels. Surely God can reveal himself to all in modern day times and get things over with regarding faith?

I'm arguing we are more moral because the rules and punishments aren't as brutal these days.

People in the past sacrificed things to other gods all the time, even before Yahweh came into fruition. Somehow I don't think they were all destroyed.

Human life would end if everyone was homosexual, but what are the chances of that? Evolutionary speaking, it would be detrimental and just won't happen. That said, some people are naturally gay, so oppressing and executing them is bad form.

So God kept killing people just beause Saul didn't kill the king (and his animals) the one time? OK. Like God couldn't have killed the king or commanded someone else to do it.

You get a life sentence depending on where you live, because in some countries like North Corea, you`d wish for the life sentence.
Not all laws were or implied the same degree of sin, if you will. There were many, many laws but only a few, if i`m not mistaken had a death penalty to it.
You need to keep in mind that the jewish people also wanted and accepted those laws; that despite there being a death penalty to certain sins, no one who repented and ask for forgiveness was ignore by God. But the most important thing is that God knew exactly who would break the laws and for what purpose.

You may say that laws are lighter than they were (human laws that is) and you might say that`s a positive sign, which is, but at the same time, look at the world you have today. It`s only getting worse. I hear my parents and other people speak about their youth days and i look at what we have today and it`s just sad to see.

We don`t know what happened to those who offered people or other things to the gods. Don`t know if they were dead a day after or years after.
If it`s anything like the Amalek people, decades passed before they met there end.

About homosexuality, what i tried to say is that, by definition, it brings the end of life, not it`s perpetuation.
It`s not a matter of if there`s more or less homosexuals, but what homosexuality brings to the table.
I do regret persecution, specially when it comes from people of faith.
If there were people who were punished because of that it was not because they were homosexuals, it`s because of what they did. That`s all that matters. You are what you are.

"Like God couldn't have killed the king or commanded someone else to do it."
Wasn`t that what God told Saul in the first place?

"Surely God can reveal himself to all in modern day times and get things over with regarding faith?"
Who says He didn`t already?
Like in the Bible and evident during Jesus life, God showed himself in ways for everyone to see, but also individually (remember those times where Jesus talked to people saying who He was and even healed and asked for silence on the matter).
But if God is real, then surely He lives and acts even know. And that`s exactly what has been happening even since Jesus death, either by Mary or even Jesus`s apparitions.
There are many, many apparitions on a individual basis, but also to a few or a lot of people with miracles and warnings of things that would come to be.

In that regard you can say, that God`s actions have always been the same: guide people, warn people, forgive people, heal people.

Let me just say that, just because there`s no fuss about it, that nothing happens.

http://www.theholyrosary.org/fatimaapparitions