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Forums - Politics - the right to bear arms and how it can be used to defend from big government

Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Quite rightly. There is a place for civil disobedience, but grazing fees are an acceptable part of rancher culture (the reason why even friggin' Glenn Beck ditched this guy), even if it is the feds you're paying money to. The question of federal ownership is largely peripheral to this story, which is more about a guy who thinks he can get something for nothing, what the Right would normally call a moocher.

Couldn't the bolded be said of any political injustice  that entails civil disobedience? Was racism not a culture in the Jim Crow south? What about woman and religous opression, aren't they acceptable parts of their respective cultures? It seems like a silly argument to justify whether or not something is worthy of civil disobedience by if it is unacceptable culturally, since you know civil disobedience tends to be countered against popularly held cultural (and consequently political) beliefs. That is of course, assuming a democratic society in which the law somewhat represents the views of the population. It's this principle which leads to the reason for why all attempts at liberal govenrnments limit the political process and power that is attainable and protect the rights of individiduals and minorities against majorities. 

A valid point, but grazing fees are not universally "public land grazing fees" paid to the state or federal government. Land-use is as big a part of Western American culture as land ownership is, and folks would boo this man as a moocher if he were grazing on privately held land and refusing to pay. How is it when the ownership changes, suddenly freeloading is "sticking it to the man?" It's just that the federal government happens to own a lot of land out west.

I personally don't believe states (or federal states) can own property, mostly because their funds and tools are stolen with the use of force. I believe the only proper way to obtain unowned land is homesteading with tools and funds that were not stolen. I believe the only proper way of obtaining owned land is by purchasing it. But let's assume the state can own land, and that this property is "publicly" owned. Let's also assume taxation is justified and all people who pay taxes must be represented in the government (this is also something I contest.) If we make those assumptions, then if one has a disagreement with how the land should be used, and they think that the federal government is unfair on permitting who should use it and for what, then it is perfectly reasonable, as a person who has at least some ownership of the land, but is forbidden from using it - to declare the government as being unfair and to disobey it. If other people agree with you, and want to participate, it makes (from this perspective) perfectly moral sense. Now let's look at this from Bundy's perspective. He doesn't even recognize the legitimacy of the federal government, and believes all of the land he is grazing is owned by the state of Nevada. Since the state of Nevada refuses to take payment for the grazing rights, it is in his eyes, implicit consent that he does not need to pay for its use. He also did attempt to pay the federal government, but found the rules too unfair, and turned to civil disobedience. 

My personal issue with this whole scenario; however, is when the government retaliates and steals (or attempts to steal) even more of  his property (in this case the cattle.) If I were using your property without your permission, and kept using it even after you expressed your disaproval, it doesn't give you the right to go to steal my property, as a means for retribution. It does give you the right, however, to seek retribution for the damage to your property from some legal means, but the value must equal the damage to your property, and I'm certain that Bundy's cattle did not eat 1 million dollars worth of grass or induce 1 million dollars worth of damage to the property. 



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thranx said:

With the recent clash between the BLM and a Nevada rancher we can see how the right to bear arms can be used to protect against a big government intrusion. I was wondering what vgcharters thought of the recent event, and how the right to own guns helped protect this man, his family, and his belongings from the long arm of the government. I dont think this would have ended peacfully if the internet did not exist and it wasn't being talked about so much on the interent (since the mainstream media didnt cover it that much, at least from what I saw) so that played a role as well. Would of been harder for big government to spin this in a good fashion with events unfolding in realtime for everyone to see. So I am glad for the internet too.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610


This was BS. A racsist racher didn't think he had to pay the fees that anybody else would - he abused public land for his own benefit, and then threatened the people in charge of enforcing the rules. This is a story of a racist farmer ripping the nation and the American people off for his own benefit. I am sorry you feel like it was a positive thing.



@ Vitro and others who make that argument. 

If the land is indeed public, it is not excludable.

So the land is either a private good or a club good. Do you believe government should own private goods or club goods?  



sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Quite rightly. There is a place for civil disobedience, but grazing fees are an acceptable part of rancher culture (the reason why even friggin' Glenn Beck ditched this guy), even if it is the feds you're paying money to. The question of federal ownership is largely peripheral to this story, which is more about a guy who thinks he can get something for nothing, what the Right would normally call a moocher.

Couldn't the bolded be said of any political injustice  that entails civil disobedience? Was racism not a culture in the Jim Crow south? What about woman and religous opression, aren't they acceptable parts of their respective cultures? It seems like a silly argument to justify whether or not something is worthy of civil disobedience by if it is unacceptable culturally, since you know civil disobedience tends to be countered against popularly held cultural (and consequently political) beliefs. That is of course, assuming a democratic society in which the law somewhat represents the views of the population. It's this principle which leads to the reason for why all attempts at liberal govenrnments limit the political process and power that is attainable and protect the rights of individiduals and minorities against majorities. 

A valid point, but grazing fees are not universally "public land grazing fees" paid to the state or federal government. Land-use is as big a part of Western American culture as land ownership is, and folks would boo this man as a moocher if he were grazing on privately held land and refusing to pay. How is it when the ownership changes, suddenly freeloading is "sticking it to the man?" It's just that the federal government happens to own a lot of land out west.

I personally don't believe states (or federal states) can own property, mostly because their funds and tools are stolen with the use of force. I believe the only proper way to obtain unowned land is homesteading with tools and funds that were not stolen. I believe the only proper way of obtaining owned land is by purchasing it. But let's assume the state can own land, and that this property is "publicly" owned. Let's also assume taxation is justified and all people who pay taxes must be represented in the government (this is also something I contest.) If we make those assumptions, then if one has a disagreement with how the land should be used, and they think that the federal government is unfair on permitting who should use it and for what, then it is perfectly reasonable, as a person who has at least some ownership of the land, but is forbidden from using it - to declare the government as being unfair and to disobey it. If other people agree with you, and want to participate, it makes (from this perspective) perfectly moral sense. Now let's look at this from Bundy's perspective. He doesn't even recognize the legitimacy of the federal government, and believes all of the land he is grazing is owned by the state of Nevada. Since the state of Nevada refuses to take payment for the grazing rights, it is in his eyes, implicit consent that he does not need to pay for its use. He also did attempt to pay the federal government, but found the rules too unfair, and turned to civil disobedience. 

My personal issue with this whole scenario; however, is when the government retaliates and steals (or attempts to steal) even more of  his property (in this case the cattle.) If I were using your property without your permission, and kept using it even after you expressed your disaproval, it doesn't give you the right to go to steal my property, as a means for retribution. It does give you the right, however, to seek retribution for the damage to your property from some legal means, but the value must equal the damage to your property, and I'm certain that Bundy's cattle did not eat 1 million dollars worth of grass or induce 1 million dollars worth of damage to the property. 

Just because someone doesn't recognize the legitimacy of something, doesn't make it reality.  It makes him delusional.  If land is public, then by definition, he doesn't own any of it, never mind "some" of it.

And you obviously have no idea how much damage cattle can do to an area if you think 1 million dollars is too high.  For the length of time he was using it, 1 million dollar is much too low.



whatever said:

Just because someone doesn't recognize the legitimacy of something, doesn't make it reality.  It makes him delusional.  If land is public, then by definition, he doesn't own any of it, never mind "some" of it.

And you obviously have no idea how much damage cattle can do to an area if you think 1 million dollars is too high.  For the length of time he was using it, 1 million dollar is much too low.

We are talking about civil disobedience, legitimacy of laws and authority is the entire basis of the concept. And if land is public then it is also by definition non-excludable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

a public good is a good that is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous in that individuals cannot be effectively excluded from use and where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excludable

In economics, a good or service is called excludable if it is possible to prevent people (consumers) who have not paid for it from having access to it

But the land is a common good, which is also non excludable but rivalrous. 



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Mr Khan said:
mai said:
Mr Khan said:

 

The image i posted was a joke which you might not get (or might, if the rumors about Russia getting America's old sitcoms on TV are true), based on a TV character with the last name of Bundy.

As for the case in question, the BLM Officers have backed off their efforts to seize his cattle for the moment, but the government's not just going to let this guy get his way. There's all sorts of stuff they could do, though, like place a tax lien against his cattle making any proceeds from sale of the cattle go straight into the government's coffers (taking away the money the cattle could earn without having to physically take the cattle).

It would be better for all involved if they solved this peacefully, especially for the wives of the militiamen, as the militiamen apparently wanted to use them as meat shields?

Patriotism at work, folks.


Russia actually has their own married with children.

 



Mr Khan said:
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
 

So how do we spin the part where they wanted to use the women as meat shields, eh? I want to see that one.

I haven't read that one. But for me, I dont care about the messenger,  I care about the mesasge. The message is for the feds to let states take control. Doesn't matter to me if I did or did not like Bundy, the message is right. Why is it that people have to attack the messengar and not the message? Why should the feds control these lands? That is what should be being asked. Bundy stated why the state should have them, why cant the feds put their reasoning out there? If it was because of the turtles, why was the land sold for houses? why are the turtles now being killed by the government. More importantly, why is it that the news only story about this is that he is racisit? and that he wants to use women as meat sheilds? Why are we disussing that instead of who should control the land, feds or state? I guess the media has done its "job" on this one.

Because it's important to discuss how dangerously insane the militia movement is?

This guy had 20 years of chances in court to prove that he had something going for him. You yourself mentioned a movement by western states to resolve this issue. The government was only trying to collect its due after twenty years of nonpayment.

Only mistake they made was in their rough handling of Bundy's son. That shouldn't have happened (and if it hadn't, the guy's cattle would have been taken without a fuss, largely).


There's a movement to do it, but generally the Federal government's stance has been to ignore the states, even when they pass laws demanding the state gives them their land.

Like Utah did in 2011.  Utah passed a law demanding the fedral government hand over the land and disperse it like they originally agreed to, and the federal government has basically just ignored them and took the state to court.

 

Generally the problem is that the enabling clauses in the western states constituions giving them control of the land were MEANT to be so private citizens didn't just start claiming private land left and right as soon as they got in the state, while the states distributed the land slowly over the course of a decade or two.

What happened in reality was, the states basically just held on to it.


Basically the federal government is welching on it's obligation and relying on the federal primacy law to do it.



mai said:

On unrelated note, it's interesting that BLM has its own law enforcement officers, while we have only old ladies for this.


Thats actually one of the problems here. Federal agencies, instead of working with local law enforcemnet, have decided to arm themselves, and arm them selves well. Mind you these are not people who are trained through the military. Almost every federal agency has a SWAT like unit. Why the need? You would think they would be able to work with local law enforcement.

 

this talks about some of them and how they have been growing http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund

 

To the rest complaing about him not paying tax, if you actually read up on it they basically taxed him out of operation, one of the things the revolution was fought over, they put taxes in place so unreasonable (not only because of the amount of the tax but the limit on cattle) that it was not possible to pay the tax. but to be honest if you guys aren't willing to research it id rather not discuss with you.



The drones says hallo..

(now we cant even make a revolution.. 10 persons can controll the world)



mornelithe said:
thranx said:
mornelithe said:

There is no scenario where they 'take' from the Federal Government.  Their only option is going a legal, peaceful route, where the land rights are transferred to the State. Otherwise, they'll simply get 'dealt' with.

 they take the land by force or legal means it does not matter. I never stated how they would, but I meant legally. that is why they had a multi state meeting about it, to plan how to legally take the land back. But failing that, I would be fine with them defending (like Bundy did) or retaking their land by force. States still have rights, and I would love for state vs feds rights to come to a head and for the feds to back down (as they should)

Yeah, that'll work out really well for them, I'm sure.  Part of me would absolutely LOVE to see them try.  The part who loves seeing Darwin Awards handed out to people who die for being idiots, that is.

Its like you didnt even read the thread. Bundy (a rancher, not even of the state, with his militia allys) was able to put the feds back. I think a state would just fine. You have to remeber, the US government cant start shooting at Utahs populace with out reprocussions elseware. So they have to ask themselves, is it worth a potential greater uprising and loss of life to take control of the land or to relinquish it. With how easy it is for info to travel on the net it would be hard pressed for the US government to ever justify it.