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Forums - Microsoft - Will the rumored ESRAM update make future XBONE games 1080p 60fps? I bet my answer will shock you.

I and many of the Xbox fans are not talking about parity with PS4.... I for once don't care what PS4 does and is capable of... I have no intend to buy one... the exclusive don't interest me for the most part... the features don't attract me and the overall ergonomics of it from the UI to the gamepad to all the add ons and gimmicks don't attract me either...

what I care though is about what will be improved on my console of choice and to what extend.... don't really care if it will compare or not to PS4 I'm not getting one so what's the point ???

it's like for smartphones... I have zero interest in iOS and will not buy a product infected by Google... I am happy with WP8.... but I am still very interested by what WP8.1 will provide.... I don't really care if it compares to Android or iOS good for them if it does... what I care about is the direct benefit I will gain with the improvement not some benchmark comparison useful for pissing and dick size contest purposes only....

Bottom line I see more PS4 fans coming in those thread downplaying things or trying to find new angles to attack every time something positive for us customers (not especially in comparison to PS4 once again) than I see XBO users claiming that now the XB is better or on par....



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JoeTheBro said:

So the new thing going around is that the new XBONE update brings 1080p. I don't blame people for believing it, since it's actually possible.

Modern games with deferred rendering usually have large frame buffers. These buffers need to be stored in ESRAM on the XBONE, but they go in GDDR5 RAM on the PS4. At 1080p with tons of effects a next gen game could have a 64MB buffer. That would fit in the 8 GB GDDR5 RAM on the PS4, but it wouldn't fit in the 32 MB ESRAM on the XBONE. Hence in this situation the dev would have to decrease the size of the buffer to make it fit in the ESRAM. Lowering the resolution is the simplest approach. At 720p the buffer fits so that's what most devs would do in this situation. The new update supposedly fixes that so somehow the 64 MB buffer fits in the 32 MB ESRAM. Maybe the cloud upgrades the ESRAM to 64 MB. Even if the update had Microsoft technicians go to every single owners house and install bunches of RAM, it wouldn't really matter. That's what people seem to be forgetting.

ESRAM is a bottleneck that does exist and needs to be dealt with by devs, but it's not the main reason XBONE games look worse than PS4. It's pretty simple to prove this conceptually too. I think most people can understand rendering a game at 1080p 30fps and rendering at 720p 60fps use about the same amount of power. The differences in resolution and framerate basically balence each other out. So if for some reason you were to lower the resolution of a game, in almost all cases it would increase the framerate. Titanfall according to the ESRAM theory could be running 1080p 60fps, but the devs had to lower it to 792p to fit the buffer in memory. Lowering the resolution to 792p would free up so many GPU resources that the game shouldn't have any problems keeping a rock solid framerate, except it does. The beta drops down into the 40s and hovers around there towards the end of matches. Yes this is a beta and I fully expect the framerate to be improved for launch, but it also shows that the beta is being restricted by GPU power even at the low resolution. Fixing the ESRAM size issues would make it possible to render the game in 1080p, but it'd still need to drop the framerate to hit it. Titanfall beta with even 256 MB of ESRAM running in 1080p would be like 20fps. Same thing applies to every other XBONE game with framerate issues. This update would probably get games like Powerstar golf and Plants Verse Zombies in 1080p. It could even get Sniper Elite 3 in 1080p. It's not however going to have any effect on the big graphic intensive games. MGS: GZ, the Witcher 3, and Watchdogs are still going to be sub 1080p on the XBONE.

 

TLDR :Here's the best analogy. There's a really nice house you want but it's not for sale and you only have $100. Fixing ESRAM puts the house on the market, but you still only have $100.

There's a ton of 1080P games on Xbox One already. 60 FPS 1080P too (Fifa 14, Madden 25, Forza 5 etc). They just dont get any attention because it doesn't fit the narrative.

For the rest of your post, "it depends". The Xone has a faster CPU and a faster GPU clock (more triangles) than PS4 among other advantages (more peak bandwidth, etc).

My guess is over time the gap will close to nothing. Most likely PS4 is blanced where only 14 CU's can really help rendering, so it's basically the same as Xbox, and/or CPU limited. Right now devs are struggling with ESRAM, but they will figure it out. The Xbox is the more complex system, thus it will improve more in time, and take more time to fully tap.



JoeTheBro said:
kirby007 said:
esram can't do gpu tasks at all


Which is why saying the update will make most future games 1080p 60fps is bogus.


Of course it's bogus. Most games will never be 1080/60 on any console, including PS4. In fact PS4 doesn't have any 1080/60 games retail exclusives at all yet.

I'd say the question is whether the Xbox can eventually catch up to rendering most/all multiplats at the same resolution and framerate the PS4 does (be it 1080 or 900). I believe the answer is yes.



fallen said:
JoeTheBro said:

So the new thing going around is that the new XBONE update brings 1080p. I don't blame people for believing it, since it's actually possible.

Modern games with deferred rendering usually have large frame buffers. These buffers need to be stored in ESRAM on the XBONE, but they go in GDDR5 RAM on the PS4. At 1080p with tons of effects a next gen game could have a 64MB buffer. That would fit in the 8 GB GDDR5 RAM on the PS4, but it wouldn't fit in the 32 MB ESRAM on the XBONE. Hence in this situation the dev would have to decrease the size of the buffer to make it fit in the ESRAM. Lowering the resolution is the simplest approach. At 720p the buffer fits so that's what most devs would do in this situation. The new update supposedly fixes that so somehow the 64 MB buffer fits in the 32 MB ESRAM. Maybe the cloud upgrades the ESRAM to 64 MB. Even if the update had Microsoft technicians go to every single owners house and install bunches of RAM, it wouldn't really matter. That's what people seem to be forgetting.

ESRAM is a bottleneck that does exist and needs to be dealt with by devs, but it's not the main reason XBONE games look worse than PS4. It's pretty simple to prove this conceptually too. I think most people can understand rendering a game at 1080p 30fps and rendering at 720p 60fps use about the same amount of power. The differences in resolution and framerate basically balence each other out. So if for some reason you were to lower the resolution of a game, in almost all cases it would increase the framerate. Titanfall according to the ESRAM theory could be running 1080p 60fps, but the devs had to lower it to 792p to fit the buffer in memory. Lowering the resolution to 792p would free up so many GPU resources that the game shouldn't have any problems keeping a rock solid framerate, except it does. The beta drops down into the 40s and hovers around there towards the end of matches. Yes this is a beta and I fully expect the framerate to be improved for launch, but it also shows that the beta is being restricted by GPU power even at the low resolution. Fixing the ESRAM size issues would make it possible to render the game in 1080p, but it'd still need to drop the framerate to hit it. Titanfall beta with even 256 MB of ESRAM running in 1080p would be like 20fps. Same thing applies to every other XBONE game with framerate issues. This update would probably get games like Powerstar golf and Plants Verse Zombies in 1080p. It could even get Sniper Elite 3 in 1080p. It's not however going to have any effect on the big graphic intensive games. MGS: GZ, the Witcher 3, and Watchdogs are still going to be sub 1080p on the XBONE.

 

TLDR :Here's the best analogy. There's a really nice house you want but it's not for sale and you only have $100. Fixing ESRAM puts the house on the market, but you still only have $100.

There's a ton of 1080P games on Xbox One already. 60 FPS 1080P too (Fifa 14, Madden 25, Forza 5 etc). They just dont get any attention because it doesn't fit the narrative.

For the rest of your post, "it depends". The Xone has a faster CPU and a faster GPU clock (more triangles) than PS4 among other advantages (more peak bandwidth, etc).

My guess is over time the gap will close to nothing. Most likely PS4 is blanced where only 14 CU's can really help rendering, so it's basically the same as Xbox, and/or CPU limited. Right now devs are struggling with ESRAM, but they will figure it out. The Xbox is the more complex system, thus it will improve more in time, and take more time to fully tap.

Which means PS4 has 4 spare CU's for GPGPU, this is where you will see the gap widen as studios start to use these more and more



vivster said:
Really bad analogy. Functional but bad.

Xbox fans all go on about parity but they don't care what this entails. If at any point there is real visual parity Sony and its fans lost. Because then the game industry has decided that parity is more important than making the best version of a game possible.

*clap* *clap* If PS4 is a stronger, more intelligently designed hardware, then by all rights it should and will have better looking games, for ever and ever. It isn't fanboyism to know so.



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endimion said:
I and many of the Xbox fans are not talking about parity with PS4.... I for once don't care what PS4 does and is capable of... I have no intend to buy one... the exclusive don't interest me for the most part... the features don't attract me and the overall ergonomics of it from the UI to the gamepad to all the add ons and gimmicks don't attract me either...

what I care though is about what will be improved on my console of choice and to what extend.... don't really care if it will compare or not to PS4 I'm not getting one so what's the point ???

it's like for smartphones... I have zero interest in iOS and will not buy a product infected by Google... I am happy with WP8.... but I am still very interested by what WP8.1 will provide.... I don't really care if it compares to Android or iOS good for them if it does... what I care about is the direct benefit I will gain with the improvement not some benchmark comparison useful for pissing and dick size contest purposes only....

Bottom line I see more PS4 fans coming in those thread downplaying things or trying to find new angles to attack every time something positive for us customers (not especially in comparison to PS4 once again) than I see XBO users claiming that now the XB is better or on par....

Very true.

Still leaves the question what you are doing in a forum that was made for console comparison sake rather than an Xbox only forum.  Also the word parity was first thrown by the Xbox crowd which shows that they apparently DO care about comparison.

That we PS fans care about comparison is only natural because it makes our choice of console look better.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

When I read all of that techno jibber jabber in the OP I just zoned out, nodded and smiled a lot.



vivster said:
endimion said:
I and many of the Xbox fans are not talking about parity with PS4.... I for once don't care what PS4 does and is capable of... I have no intend to buy one... the exclusive don't interest me for the most part... the features don't attract me and the overall ergonomics of it from the UI to the gamepad to all the add ons and gimmicks don't attract me either...

what I care though is about what will be improved on my console of choice and to what extend.... don't really care if it will compare or not to PS4 I'm not getting one so what's the point ???

it's like for smartphones... I have zero interest in iOS and will not buy a product infected by Google... I am happy with WP8.... but I am still very interested by what WP8.1 will provide.... I don't really care if it compares to Android or iOS good for them if it does... what I care about is the direct benefit I will gain with the improvement not some benchmark comparison useful for pissing and dick size contest purposes only....

Bottom line I see more PS4 fans coming in those thread downplaying things or trying to find new angles to attack every time something positive for us customers (not especially in comparison to PS4 once again) than I see XBO users claiming that now the XB is better or on par....

Very true.

Still leaves the question what you are doing in a forum that was made for console comparison sake rather than an Xbox only forum.  Also the word parity was first thrown by the Xbox crowd which shows that they apparently DO care about comparison.

That we PS fans care about comparison is only natural because it makes our choice of console look better.


well you'll notice that I rarely venture out of the Microsoft forum :D

I got on that website in 2007 for sales purposes.... and I'm still interested by that subject, as a matter of fact I follow sales of many tech products because I used it in my school projects back in undergrad/grad and still have an interest in it today 

and this is the only site I use regularly for my VG needs... even though the war is fierce even in those parts I still find it more civilized around here.... especially with the mean mods we have :P (just kidding) and besides I still like to know what is going on in the market and I find that a lot of the community members are doing an amazing job at reporting news from the other websites.... that doesn't mean I feel the need to compare it to my choices every time something positive happen on the other platforms or my platform of choice....

bottom line I do belive that the gap will widen on some parts and close on others as the gen goes on.... but all in all it will be less and less noticeable outside of technical comparaison with increase of quality on both sides.... because unless you look for it it will get harder and harder to notice defects while activelly gaming as quality improves.... a good exemple is the crowd in games like fifa or forza.... yeah sure you can notice the downgrade in forza and see the 3d people moving and reacting in real time now in fifa if you pay attention but to be fair when I actually race or play a match in fifa I rarely pay attention to the crowd....



I read blah, blah, cloud, Xbone, blah... I thought there would be some jizz worthy Xbone bashing to get me off, but no sauce.... So, I then proceeded to find some masturbation worthy material. "Sexbox, go to Netflix." Netflix got some pretty raunchy stuff these days. Ahhhhh, the beauty of masturbating without touching a mouse or controller, straight from browsing VGChartz.







VGChartz♥♥♥♥♥FOREVER

Xbone... the new "N" word   Apparently I troll MS now | Evidence | Evidence

oh man, good one Joe XD