The "next big thing." I always hear fanboys and analysts talk about some supposed Sony "brand loyalty." There is no such thing to the casual consumer. To the contrary, they are always looking for something completely new, and unique. They aren't loyal to a brand, because they are CASUAL. They buy whatever interests them at the moment. In this way, the hype behind the Wii is a giant beast that feeds off of itself and expands. The fact that it's always sold out, word of mouth, and the media hype behind the system just send the Wii into a state of exponential growth. The same thing happened with the PS2 and PSone. It has the media attention, and that's ALL it takes for the casual. The people who are talking about 80 million PS2 owners sitting and waiting are crazy. 80 million PS2 owners were casual, and they are buying the new casual system. The hardcore barely make a dent on the market, and they are the only ones who have anything like brand loyalty (and certainly not all of them either).


Couldn´t have said it better. I know at least 30 guys that owned a PS2. Of them, about 5 are buying a 360 and probably a Wii, 10 are buying a Wii, and the rest don´t want a new console because the only care about Pro Evo, and that game is good enough for them in ps2. A good chunk of ps2 sales were made in South America, were piracy is the king. And piracy is going on hand with Wii and 360 now. Sad, but true. I think people should check comparison of sales between franchises in ps2 and psp to see how big are they ( ratchet and clank, jak and daxter, mgs) Check PS2 best sellers. How mant Need for Speeds, Maddens, Spidermans, HP, Simpons game are there? A lot. PS2 had the lead, the media, the populatiry. Many people still think PS2 graphics are good right now...Sony loyal fanbase can be easily obtained in numbers, by the numbers done by their most important franchises. I think we can get, tops, 15 million gamers. And most of them aren´t even Sonys franchises. Thats why PS3 isn´t going anywhere. I actually think 360 has a big chance to be extremely succesful. They should focus in Europe and America, were they could get easily 40 million consoles sold. Japan is a lot cause, I think they should really stop trying.

diegomoroco777 saied,
"The people who are talking about 80 million PS2 owners sitting and waiting are crazy. 80 million PS2 owners were casual, and they are buying the new casual system. The hardcore barely make a dent on the market, and they are the only ones who have anything like brand loyalty (and certainly not all of them either)."

==> i NEVER claimed that the PS2 owners were "sitting " !!!
Just learn to read blind guy !!!!

PS2 owners ARE LOOKING to play to the sequel of MGS FF Halo GT GTA etc...
if these game come to Wii, then Wii will OVER possess the market (more than 80%)

if these game come to Xbox360 or/and PS3 then these 2 expensive console are still not dead ...

==> that is all I was claiming !!!
next time just read better my post

libellule said: diegomoroco777 saied, "The people who are talking about 80 million PS2 owners sitting and waiting are crazy. 80 million PS2 owners were casual, and they are buying the new casual system. The hardcore barely make a dent on the market, and they are the only ones who have anything like brand loyalty (and certainly not all of them either)." ==> i NEVER claimed that the PS2 owners were "sitting " !!! Just learn to read blind guy !!!! PS2 owners ARE LOOKING to play to the sequel of MGS FF Halo GT GTA etc... if these game come to Wii, then Wii will OVER possess the market (more than 80%) if these game come to Xbox360 or/and PS3 then these 2 expensive console are still not dead ... ==> that is all I was claiming !!! next time just read better my post

 Maybe I'm missing something, but how are those games for the "casual" gamer?

Certainly, they have sold a lot of units but these sales would (mostly) be made to the same 20% of users that would be defined as "Core" gamers. I thought that the games that mattered to casual gamers were The Sims, Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Bejewled, and countless sports games.

 

libellule said: "What asinine speculation. Is the Wii really that much of a threat to anyone's ego here that they have to rationalize it by claiming it will only suck up non-important or irrelevant demographics of the consumer base? It's no more fanboyish than saying, "The Wii is only stealing away the PS3's gradeschool and toddler demographic with their continued strangle hold on kiddy crap, lawl."" ==> I think nobody has claimed this, sorry, Who claimed that wii was stealing PS3 gamers ? Put a name next time.

Fractal of Time said would steal all the "non-gamers" in the post just above mine. Perhaps try reading the thread you're responding in.

libellule said: "May I also point out the childish elitism of using such immature words as "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", etc to rationalize your console's demographic. Do you really need to justify your choice in consoles so forcefully as to think of yourself as the only type gamer that matters or what can be considered a true gamer? Why not just start giving the games "Penis raitings" to better illustrate the size of your ego's cock while you're at it?" ==> but is is because there are a lot of different gamer style that we try to create category to understand the things: "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", I consider that a part of the wii owners are "non classical gamer" (like a woman friend of me that know nothing to console), that is not bad or good ... Put name on group help us to talk about them ...

its vague and varries individual to individual and is still elitist. While we can all agree vaguely on what a casual gamer is, to call someone a non-gamer is just insulting or for someone to think of  themselves as a true-gamer or hardcore gamer is just pretencious and justificaiton after the fact for what a person wants to believe is a better gaming experience. The term "Non-Gamer" was being used to dismiss those who prefered the Wii and thus was the prompt for my reply. Try reading the thread next time before jumping head long into what you're not familiar with.

libellule said: "If the Wii is only stealing away the PlayStation's "Non-Gamer" demographic then I guess 90% of PlayStation's original demographic was "Non-Gamer" as the PS3's sales keep dropping while Wii's keep going strong." ==> well, 90% ??? considering the numbers PS2 owners (120M) and the numbers of wii owners (8M), you have to make some progress in arythmetic ...see the end of my post !

Did I say my percentage was a statistical fact? Did I argue it as such? Or did I choose that number solely because it represented the majority to make the point that the Wii is selling much better than the PS3?

libellule said: " Seriously, I don't care what console you choose to back but if you're going to make excuses for it at least try and keep them in line with the given facts around us." ==> same for u !!! so easy to give lesson to other people ...

How am I out of line with the facts, the Wii is selling like hotcakes. Fact. The PS3 isn't. Fact. Everything in console history has shown us the PS3 is a recipe for disaster and the Wii is a recipe for success. To suggest the PS3 is just waiting to make a comeback or that the Wii is just a fad is in stark contrast to what we're not only seeing but what we've seen time and time again in past generations of gaming. The facts, history and statistics are in fact not on the side of those I'm making a statement against. That is the point I was making. Please don't try and humor me with your silly mathmatics as a counter, I've read the end of your post and god you don't know what you're talking about, I mean seriously, what are you smoking?

libellule said: (to Gballzack : i m sorry, but, to understand this, you have to know "how to count"' and I must say that it is easier for US, the male gamers, cause we have trained a lot mesuring our my penis size. Try to get some boyfriend, he will show u how it functions ^^) Let's say that there is still 80 M of classical gamers (PS2 owner in majority) that don't have bought a next gen console. These guys want to play to GTA/Halo3/FF/MGS etc ...the sequel of their favorite game these games are not going to be released on Wii ! Knowing this, it is easy to see that people, EVEN IF they love wii, love wii game and get it, will have to buy another console, something that can play the last GTA/Halo/GT sequel ... I think that slowly, with the help of price reduction, people will try to purchase the PS3/Xbox360 console, that is all I want to say. Of course, if the GT/MGS/FF/Halo are going to be released on the wii too then things will be, for sure, completely in favor of the wii but for the moment, "classical gamer" still show some big interest on the 2 most expensive console : PS3 and Xbox360. (just consider this : the number of Wii troll << PS3/Xbox360 troll)  (to Gballzack, this "==>" is NOT a penis in erection !!! this "==>" is suppose to be an arrow, I use it to make my post clearer (hope it helps))

So made up numbers and penis banter is your trump card against me, Dear god you're terrible at this. Do I even need to argue with this or can we all just agree here that this guy has killed his own argument? Congratulations, you've lost the argument (which ironically enough this wasn't until you made it one), try establishing relevance in your replies and coherant logic next time. There was nothing in my reply that gave you enough leverage in debate to counter or make a good argument, this was a lost cause for you from the outset. Next time choose your battles more carefully.

The problem with the wii is that its $40 games are only half as good as sony or microsoft's $50 ones.

 

 

dallas said: The problem with the wii is that its $40 games are only half as good as sony or microsoft's $50 ones.

Could PS3 and XBox 360 fans please pick one argument ...

Half the time they say "These systems don't have their good games out so it is unfair to compare sales" and the rest of the time it is "The Wii's games are awful compared to the greatness of the PS3 and XBox 360"

 

I choose the second one most of the time.

Also, game quality might not matter much in the long run. Look at the DS's and PSP's sales. They use cute-rate hardware, and yet, still outsell anything put up next to them.

Peace

Gballzack said: libellule said: "What asinine speculation. Is the Wii really that much of a threat to anyone's ego here that they have to rationalize it by claiming it will only suck up non-important or irrelevant demographics of the consumer base? It's no more fanboyish than saying, "The Wii is only stealing away the PS3's gradeschool and toddler demographic with their continued strangle hold on kiddy crap, lawl."" ==> I think nobody has claimed this, sorry, Who claimed that wii was stealing PS3 gamers ? Put a name next time. Fractal of Time said would steal all the "non-gamers" in the post just above mine. Perhaps try reading the thread you're responding in.  sorry, I was not able to found a post where someone claimed that wii is stealing PS3's non gamers... just a quote next time if you want to convince people libelluled: "May I also point out the childish elitism of using such immature words as "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", etc to rationalize your console's demographic. Do you really need to justify your choice in consoles so forcefully as to think of yourself as the only type gamer that matters or what can be considered a true gamer? Why not just start giving the games "Penis raitings" to better illustrate the size of your ego's cock while you're at it?" ==> but is is because there are a lot of different gamer style that we try to create category to understand the things: "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", I consider that a part of the wii owners are "non classical gamer" (like a woman friend of me that know nothing to console), that is not bad or good ... Put name on group help us to talk about them ... its vague and varries individual to individual and is still elitist. While we can all agree vaguely on what a casual gamer is, to call someone a non-gamer is just insulting or for someone to think of  themselves as a true-gamer or hardcore gamer is just pretencious and justificaiton after the fact for what a person wants to believe is a better gaming experience. The term "Non-Gamer" was being used to dismiss those who prefered the Wii and thus was the prompt for my reply. Try reading the thread next time before jumping head long into what you're not familiar with.  you re right about the fact that this is vague and varry a lot. And I think, considering others posts, that we are not talking of the same people when we say "casual gamer" But neverthless, I dont see why calling someone "non gamer" is "elitiste". Sincerely, Im  only talking about people that are not used to buy games/play console. These guys exist and contribute to the success of the Wii, that is all. These are "non gamer" cause they are not used to play game, NOT because they play Wii ! And I never claimed that some PS2 owner have not buy a wii ! What I claimed is that they dont represent the majority of the PS2 owners. ( with other words, YOU are NOT a non-gamer, are you happy now ?) libellule said: "If the Wii is only stealing away the PlayStation's "Non-Gamer" demographic then I guess 90% of PlayStation's original demographic was "Non-Gamer" as the PS3's sales keep dropping while Wii's keep going strong." ==> well, 90% ??? considering the numbers PS2 owners (120M) and the numbers of wii owners (8M), you have to make some progress in arythmetic ...see the end of my post ! Did I say my percentage was a statistical fact? Did I argue it as such? Or did I choose that number solely because it represented the majority to make the point that the Wii is selling much better than the PS3? ===> oh yes we all have to say before using numbers "this is a statistical fact" lol, Whatever, I m pretty sure you were not using this as a real statiscal number, I was just joking BUT, the fact is that 8 M sales is really FAR from 80 M, Next time, just consider that a lot of people still only own a ... PS2 !  (90% in fact ^^) libellule said: " Seriously, I don't care what console you choose to back but if you're going to make excuses for it at least try and keep them in line with the given facts around us." ==> same for u !!! so easy to give lesson to other people ... How am I out of line with the facts, the Wii is selling like hotcakes. Fact.  The PS3 isn't. Fact.   NOT FACT, numbers are fact, at least good estimations of fact, BUT "selling" like hot cakes is NOT a fact Selling like hot cakes is a tool to convince people that wii is selling more than just 8 M Don't give lesson to people if you re not able to applicate to you in first !   The PS3 isn't. Fact. Everything in console history has shown us the PS3 is a recipe for disaster and the Wii is a recipe for success. huh ? 8 months ? you call this "console history" ? I thought we were talking about what will happen in the future (end of year 2007 at least) , not about the past. You can use all the fact (sales) you want about past and present, BUT there are no fact for the future, only sales prediction. And even if you think that "future good PS3 sales" is a low probality KNOWING the "actual bad PS3 sales, it will only be a probability than can or not realize ... And I was not speaking about PS3, but PS3 and Xbox360, that both play in the same category   To suggest the PS3 is just waiting to make a comeback or that the Wii is just a fad is in stark contrast to what we're not only seeing but what we've seen time and time again in past generations of gaming. but who care about past generation ? So many people where thinking that PS2 will lose, So many were not expecting nintendo to come back so well with the mysterious "revolution"   The facts, history and statistics are in fact not on the side of those I'm making a statement against.  I only make statement on the future, where there are still no fact !And I think that one of the most interesting fact, that people always forget, is that about 80 M PS2 owners still don't have buy a next-gen console ... that is a fact !   That is the point I was making. Please don't try and humor me with your silly mathmatics as a counter, I've read the end of your post and god you don't know what you're talking about, I mean seriously, what are you smoking?  This was not "smoking", only joking ...  Are you too "high" for my "low" joke, elitist woman ? ? ?  libellule said: (to Gballzack : i m sorry, but, to understand this, you have to know "how to count"' and I must say that it is easier for US, the male gamers, cause we have trained a lot mesuring our my penis size. Try to get some boyfriend, he will show u how it functions ^^) Let's say that there is still 80 M of classical gamers (PS2 owner in majority) that don't have bought a next gen console. These guys want to play to GTA/Halo3/FF/MGS etc ...the sequel of their favorite game these games are not going to be released on Wii ! Knowing this, it is easy to see that people, EVEN IF they love wii, love wii game and get it, will have to buy another console, something that can play the last GTA/Halo/GT sequel ... I think that slowly, with the help of price reduction, people will try to purchase the PS3/Xbox360 console, that is all I want to say. Of course, if the GT/MGS/FF/Halo are going to be released on the wii too then things will be, for sure, completely in favor of the wii but for the moment, "classical gamer" still show some big interest on the 2 most expensive console : PS3 and Xbox360. (just consider this : the number of Wii troll << PS3/Xbox360 troll)  (to Gballzack, this "==>" is NOT a penis in erection !!! this "==>" is suppose to be an arrow, I use it to make my post clearer (hope it helps))   So made up numbers and penis banter is your trump card against me, Dear god you're terrible at this. Do I even need to argue with this or can we all just agree here that this guy has killed his own argument? Congratulations, you've lost the argument (which ironically enough this wasn't until you made it one), try establishing relevance in your replies and coherant logic next time. There was nothing in my reply that gave you enough leverage in debate to counter or make a good argument, this was a lost cause for you from the outset. Next time choose your battles more carefully.

====>  "can we all" ? do you really need the help of "all" ?

and you don't think you "need to argue" ? Am I too low for you, elitist woman ?

How can u say that people are elitist when you are the Queen of elitism (sse your post)

I don't see what you try to show in the end of your post ... sorry

But I dont think that my numbers are  mad,

the 10/8/3M sales per consoles Xbox360/Wii/PS3 are what you can see on the home webpage of VGC.

the 120 M PS2 consoles was stated recently buy a Sony guy

I don't think my post was madness ... maybe too simple for you, but not madness

libellule said: Gballzack said: libellule said: "What asinine speculation. Is the Wii really that much of a threat to anyone's ego here that they have to rationalize it by claiming it will only suck up non-important or irrelevant demographics of the consumer base? It's no more fanboyish than saying, "The Wii is only stealing away the PS3's gradeschool and toddler demographic with their continued strangle hold on kiddy crap, lawl."" ==> I think nobody has claimed this, sorry, Who claimed that wii was stealing PS3 gamers ? Put a name next time. Fractal of Time said would steal all the "non-gamers" in the post just above mine. Perhaps try reading the thread you're responding in.  sorry, I was not able to found a post where someone claimed that wii is stealing PS3's non gamers... just a quote next time if you want to convince people libelluled: "May I also point out the childish elitism of using such immature words as "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", etc to rationalize your console's demographic. Do you really need to justify your choice in consoles so forcefully as to think of yourself as the only type gamer that matters or what can be considered a true gamer? Why not just start giving the games "Penis raitings" to better illustrate the size of your ego's cock while you're at it?" ==> but is is because there are a lot of different gamer style that we try to create category to understand the things: "Non-Gamer", "True-Gamer", "Hardcore-Gamer", I consider that a part of the wii owners are "non classical gamer" (like a woman friend of me that know nothing to console), that is not bad or good ... Put name on group help us to talk about them ... its vague and varries individual to individual and is still elitist. While we can all agree vaguely on what a casual gamer is, to call someone a non-gamer is just insulting or for someone to think of  themselves as a true-gamer or hardcore gamer is just pretencious and justificaiton after the fact for what a person wants to believe is a better gaming experience. The term "Non-Gamer" was being used to dismiss those who prefered the Wii and thus was the prompt for my reply. Try reading the thread next time before jumping head long into what you're not familiar with.  you re right about the fact that this is vague and varry a lot. And I think, considering others posts, that we are not talking of the same people when we say "casual gamer" But neverthless, I dont see why calling someone "non gamer" is "elitiste". Sincerely, Im  only talking about people that are not used to buy games/play console. These guys exist and contribute to the success of the Wii, that is all. These are "non gamer" cause they are not used to play game, NOT because they play Wii ! And I never claimed that some PS2 owner have not buy a wii ! What I claimed is that they dont represent the majority of the PS2 owners. ( with other words, YOU are NOT a non-gamer, are you happy now ?) libellule said: "If the Wii is only stealing away the PlayStation's "Non-Gamer" demographic then I guess 90% of PlayStation's original demographic was "Non-Gamer" as the PS3's sales keep dropping while Wii's keep going strong." ==> well, 90% ??? considering the numbers PS2 owners (120M) and the numbers of wii owners (8M), you have to make some progress in arythmetic ...see the end of my post ! Did I say my percentage was a statistical fact? Did I argue it as such? Or did I choose that number solely because it represented the majority to make the point that the Wii is selling much better than the PS3? ===> oh yes we all have to say before using numbers "this is a statistical fact" lol, Whatever, I m pretty sure you were not using this as a real statiscal number, I was just joking BUT, the fact is that 8 M sales is really FAR from 80 M, Next time, just consider that a lot of people still only own a ... PS2 !  (90% in fact ^^) libellule said: " Seriously, I don't care what console you choose to back but if you're going to make excuses for it at least try and keep them in line with the given facts around us." ==> same for u !!! so easy to give lesson to other people ... How am I out of line with the facts, the Wii is selling like hotcakes. Fact.  The PS3 isn't. Fact.   NOT FACT, numbers are fact, at least good estimations of fact, BUT "selling" like hot cakes is NOT a fact Selling like hot cakes is a tool to convince people that wii is selling more than just 8 M Don't give lesson to people if you re not able to applicate to you in first !   The PS3 isn't. Fact. Everything in console history has shown us the PS3 is a recipe for disaster and the Wii is a recipe for success. huh ? 8 months ? you call this "console history" ? I thought we were talking about what will happen in the future (end of year 2007 at least) , not about the past. You can use all the fact (sales) you want about past and present, BUT there are no fact for the future, only sales prediction. And even if you think that "future good PS3 sales" is a low probality KNOWING the "actual bad PS3 sales, it will only be a probability than can or not realize ... And I was not speaking about PS3, but PS3 and Xbox360, that both play in the same category   To suggest the PS3 is just waiting to make a comeback or that the Wii is just a fad is in stark contrast to what we're not only seeing but what we've seen time and time again in past generations of gaming. but who care about past generation ? So many people where thinking that PS2 will lose, So many were not expecting nintendo to come back so well with the mysterious "revolution"   The facts, history and statistics are in fact not on the side of those I'm making a statement against.  I only make statement on the future, where there are still no fact !And I think that one of the most interesting fact, that people always forget, is that about 80 M PS2 owners still don't have buy a next-gen console ... that is a fact !   That is the point I was making. Please don't try and humor me with your silly mathmatics as a counter, I've read the end of your post and god you don't know what you're talking about, I mean seriously, what are you smoking?  This was not "smoking", only joking ...  Are you too "high" for my "low" joke, elitist woman ? ? ?  libellule said: (to Gballzack : i m sorry, but, to understand this, you have to know "how to count"' and I must say that it is easier for US, the male gamers, cause we have trained a lot mesuring our my penis size. Try to get some boyfriend, he will show u how it functions ^^) Let's say that there is still 80 M of classical gamers (PS2 owner in majority) that don't have bought a next gen console. These guys want to play to GTA/Halo3/FF/MGS etc ...the sequel of their favorite game these games are not going to be released on Wii ! Knowing this, it is easy to see that people, EVEN IF they love wii, love wii game and get it, will have to buy another console, something that can play the last GTA/Halo/GT sequel ... I think that slowly, with the help of price reduction, people will try to purchase the PS3/Xbox360 console, that is all I want to say. Of course, if the GT/MGS/FF/Halo are going to be released on the wii too then things will be, for sure, completely in favor of the wii but for the moment, "classical gamer" still show some big interest on the 2 most expensive console : PS3 and Xbox360. (just consider this : the number of Wii troll << PS3/Xbox360 troll)  (to Gballzack, this "==>" is NOT a penis in erection !!! this "==>" is suppose to be an arrow, I use it to make my post clearer (hope it helps))   So made up numbers and penis banter is your trump card against me, Dear god you're terrible at this. Do I even need to argue with this or can we all just agree here that this guy has killed his own argument? Congratulations, you've lost the argument (which ironically enough this wasn't until you made it one), try establishing relevance in your replies and coherant logic next time. There was nothing in my reply that gave you enough leverage in debate to counter or make a good argument, this was a lost cause for you from the outset. Next time choose your battles more carefully. ====>  "can we all" ? do you really need the help of "all" ? and you don't think you "need to argue" ? Am I too low for you, elitist woman ? How can u say that people are elitist when you are the Queen of elitism (sse your post) I don't see what you try to show in the end of your post ... sorry But I dont think that my numbers are  mad, the 10/8/3M sales per consoles Xbox360/Wii/PS3 are what you can see on the home webpage of VGC. the 120 M PS2 consoles was stated recently buy a Sony guy I don't think my post was madness ... maybe too simple for you, but not madness

I'll be honest, I didn't read any of that. I don't think anyone else on this forum read any of that either. I've adressed everything to my satisfaction in my first reply so just simply take that and paste it beneath yours if you wish to continue debating. I'm not going to get drug into a pointless pissing contest of non-issues about made up numbers and your name calling. You're just another bystandard who wanted to take a pot shot at the big bad Sony hater and choose the first post of mine you could find to justify a chance at attacking. Unfortunately, you choose a poor target of a post with little to no substance worth debating and now find yourself left fighting over the intellectual equivalent of twigs and pebbles, for lack of a better comparison, in your overeager attempt to pick a fight.

I'm usually unable to resist a back n' forth flame war debates like this because its something I enjoy taking part in, but honestly, you don't offer anything to entice my interests. All you did was attack a bunch of non-points and opinions with a bunch of non-points and your own opinions framed in abstract logic and feigned confidence. What? Am I suppossed to be tempted by the pauldry attempt at an argument? Go bother someone else kid.

The answer you gave to me is so ... ugly !!!
I cannot remember someone answering me like this lol
I suppose it is your way to lose the battle ...
You stated "Sony is dead"
I stated "Nothing is done, even for the wii"

just some point :

"I don't think anyone else on this forum read any of that either"
==> dont speak for others people

"who wanted to take a pot shot at the big bad Sony hater"
==> In these post, I was talking about Xbox360 AND PS3
It is you that keep focus on PS3, not me, Sony Hater lol

"Unfortunately, you choose a poor target of a post with little to no substance worth debating "
=> your post was a global answer for others posts where people were defending their ideas. Don't extract your post of the context.

"now find yourself left"
==> cause you just left ! that is all

"I'm usually unable to resist a back n' forth flame war debates like this because its something I enjoy taking part in, but honestly, you don't offer anything to entice my interests."
==> If you re so affraid/laking of arguments then just leave the non-Wii thread ... and you will be happy again !!!