Edouble24 said: Final-Fan said: Edouble24 said: ClaudeLv250 said: Edouble24 said: Final Fantasy VII has the best cast of characters in any game ever. I'm going to have to say no. Really? After all the hate you expressed for it in this thread I though you were going to agree with me. You can make arguments in defense of the plot -- I am skeptical of these but there is at least wiggle room here. But "best video game characters/cast ever" is just a completely indefensible position. Why even try? FFVI, Crono Trigger, even Paper Mario has characters that are less cardboard-cutout in personality if not depiction. I'm not going to try, no point as I'm not trying to convince any of you. Just expressing my opinion on the cast since that's what people were talking about. And Claude I believe you said if it were any worse it would be FFVIII, that's pretty hateful.

I'm not being hateful, I'm being truthful.

 

Final-Fan said: Edouble24 said: Final-Fan said: Edouble24 said: ClaudeLv250 said: Edouble24 said: Final Fantasy VII has the best cast of characters in any game ever. I'm going to have to say no. Really? After all the hate you expressed for it in this thread I though you were going to agree with me. You can make arguments in defense of the plot -- I am skeptical of these but there is at least wiggle room here. But "best video game characters/cast ever" is just a completely indefensible position. Why even try? FFVI, Crono Trigger, even Paper Mario has characters that are less cardboard-cutout in personality if not depiction. I'm not going to try, no point as I'm not trying to convince any of you. Just expressing my opinion on the cast since that's what people were talking about. And Claude I believe you said if it were any worse it would be FFVIII, that's pretty hateful. Well you are free to LIKE the cast of FFVII more than any other group of characters, but you said that they ARE better. That can only be a statement that by some neutral measure they can be found superior to any other video game's cast of characters. Next time don't make statements of PERSONAL FEELING into statements of FACT. And are you dissing FFVIII?

I always state my personal opinion as a fact, as do most people that made it past 9th grade. I assume my readers can differentiate between fact and opinion and it's quite clear when someone is making an objective statement and someone isn't. Honestly that's how most professionals write, I've never seen a real book or editorial riddled with "IMO this IMO that" So understand I was merely stating my opinion.

Yes I was indeed insulting Final Fantasy VIII. That game is trash(IMO!) 

 

Edouble24 said: Final-Fan said: Edouble24 said: Final-Fan said: Edouble24 said: ClaudeLv250 said: Edouble24 said: Final Fantasy VII has the best cast of characters in any game ever. I'm going to have to say no. Really? After all the hate you expressed for it in this thread I though you were going to agree with me. You can make arguments in defense of the plot -- I am skeptical of these but there is at least wiggle room here. But "best video game characters/cast ever" is just a completely indefensible position. Why even try? FFVI, Crono Trigger, even Paper Mario has characters that are less cardboard-cutout in personality if not depiction. I'm not going to try, no point as I'm not trying to convince any of you. Just expressing my opinion on the cast since that's what people were talking about. And Claude I believe you said if it were any worse it would be FFVIII, that's pretty hateful. Well you are free to LIKE the cast of FFVII more than any other group of characters, but you said that they ARE better. That can only be a statement that by some neutral measure they can be found superior to any other video game's cast of characters. Next time don't make statements of PERSONAL FEELING into statements of FACT. And are you dissing FFVIII? I always state my personal opinion as a fact, as do most people that made it past 9th grade. I assume my readers can differentiate between fact and opinion and it's quite clear when someone is making an objective statement and someone isn't. Honestly that's how most professionals write, I've never seen a real book or editorial riddled with "IMO this IMO that" So understand I was merely stating my opinion. Yes I was indeed insulting Final Fantasy VIII. That game is trash(IMO!)

OK, I thought I was pretty explicit about this, but let me spell it out: You are either saying that
1. In your opinion it is an objective FACT that FFVII's cast of characters is the best group of characters ever to grace a video game (This is the kind of opinion that doesn't need to be stated as such); or
2. You PERSONALLY happen to like the cast of FFVII better than the characters in any other video game (This is the kind of opinion which is generally expected to be stated as such -- "Pizza is my favorite food" not "Pizza is the best food ever created, SUCK THAT APPLE PIE!!1!one")

In some cases it is unnecessary to announce that you are saying (2) instead of (1) but considering the ongoing debate between Borkachev and Fuzzmosis I think I was quite reasonable to treat your statement as (1) instead of assuming it was (2). It was (2) right?

I always feel it's unnecessary to present my statment as (2). To me the cast of FFVII is the best cast of characters in a video game so I'll always say that as "FFVII has the best cast of characters ever." Simple as that.

Fine, but you can't expect to make statements like "best of any game EVER" and not have people dispute you. That's just not a realistic expectation.

As you said, blame the PS1. I'd always assumed he was stabbed through the shoulder, now I'm not completely sure. This is the one thing you've made me wonder at in this thread. But like I said, it's an awfully minor issue. It's a question of where precisely, in a measure of inches, a stab wound happened. Does the story hold together or fall apart based on that location? Would it even matter if there had been no sword at all, and Sephiroth had just lifted him up by the scruff of his shirt? No. So who gives a shit?


Maybe I didn't make this clear enough. Cloud was never physically weak. He was a tough kid with low self-esteem and a poor sense of self. It was in this sense that he was "weak," and it was this that kept him out of SOLDIER -- only the mentally strong could withstand the Mako treatments.


Mako poisoning isn't a physical poison like arsenic. It's concentrated knowledge and "spirit energy," and the "poisoning" effect is the mind's reaction to overexposure to these things. There's no indication that it's harmful to the body; it just drives you insane.

In any case, I was just throwing that out as a possibility. The point is that you can't make wild assumptions about the state of medicine in a world full of magic and bizarre technology. The life-saving properties of Jenova cells, at least, are hinted at in the story through Vincent and Lucretia.

And could you please try to be a little less obnoxious with your replies?


I think we've been over this. "Beyond human" doesn't mean he's invincible. That an exceptionally strong human could overpower him once under extraordinary circumstances doesn't seem particularly far-fetched to me. Sephiroth wasn't a god.

And it's not just what I "think." When I venture to make a guess like that, it's because it's got compelling evidence behind it. In this case, we're prepared for the possibility of Cloud being stronger than Sephiroth throughout the game as a buildup to the final battle, where Cloud expels the last of him from his mind.


So you can accept that they escape, but you refuse to believe they were captured in the first place? What exactly were they escaping from? Come on. You're not this dense.

I told you that this stuff is explained elsewhere in the game. I don't particularly want to go digging through the game script to find it. Even without the direct quotes, even a retarded chimp could piece this together. Hojo tells Cloud he was part of the Jenova project. Sephiroth explains what Hojo did to him. We see the place where the experiments took place. Everyone in Nibelheim at the time of the Sephiroth incident was also part of the project, except Tifa, who was rescued immediately after. In the note he leaves, Zangan explains that he got her away just as Hojo and the Shinra soldiers were arriving. This quotation I actually did dig up for you: "As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let them have my
dearest student."

Hmmm, I wonder if these things might be connected somehow.

If you really need it spelled out for you, this scene is depicted in the Last Order anime. I didn't want to bring it up because it's not canonical, but I guess some people don't believe things until they see it performed in front of them with bright lights and colors.


No, he wasn't a regular guy. He wasn't all-powerful, either. You're "just going by the story"? What part of the story, exactly?


So is it just the word "clones" you hate? If I call them fig-blossoms, would that make it alright? There are no clones in FFVII. Yes, they have Jenova cells. If you get a blood transfusion, does that make you a clone?


I explained this in a previous post. No clone broke into the Shinra building and took Jenova. Jenova itself came to life under the control of Sephiroth, broke out of its containment, and wiped out the building.

Sephiroth never controlled the members of SOLDIER. Why that is is never explicitly said, but it's implied that it's either because they weren't subjected to the same level of Jenova experimentation as the others, or, much more likely, because they possessed the "strength of mind" we were just talking about which Cloud and the other subjects lacked. Sephiroth could only manipulate the weak.


No, you were right on the Cloud clone part, you were just wrong about what a Sephiroth clone is. That's alright -- it was a long, long time before I figured it out. Cloud is just as much a Sephiroth clone as any of the numbered clones -- he just escaped before he got his tattoo.


Because obtaining the black materia was more urgent to Sephiroth. The reunion didn't matter until he had that.


I refuse to believe you don't understand this. No, you're being deliberately dense.

You go into a burning building. There unconscious on the floor is your daughter and an anonymous fireman who tried to save her, and you can only carry one of them. Are you going to rescue the fireman? Fuck no.


What exactly is the problem here? Who else would be first on the scene if not the Shinra army?


Yes, you've got it. These are all powers of Jenova. If you have a problem with that, you must hate all this magic. "This is bullshit! Magic isn't real!"

Hang on, are you or are you not asserting that the characters of FFVII are in objective fact the best of any game ever created, as opposed to the best from your personal perspective and to you personally?

Final-Fan said: Fine, but you can't expect to make statements like "best of any game EVER" and not have people dispute you. That's just not a realistic expectation.

You're allowed to disagree, I never said otherwise. like I said I'm not going to try to convince you of anything.

 

Lol@Final-fan and Edouble24's reactions =p.

Edouble24 said: Final-Fan said: Fine, but you can't expect to make statements like "best of any game EVER" and not have people dispute you. That's just not a realistic expectation. You're allowed to disagree, I never said otherwise. like I said I'm not going to try to convince you of anything.

 I would actually like you to explain, character by character what makes them so great.  I'm interested as why you think they are great characters.  Mostly with Cait Sith, Red XIII, Vincent and Yuffie.  Who to me were all filler with very little relevence to the story.