Borkachev said: Sephiroth is apparently by far the most powerful despite being the child of a random and a scientist and despite others being mentioned getting cells (I beleive, if not mako), by the end of the game, Sephiroth > Jenova. Stupid weak evil alien of doom! (Says the game) Edouble explained why Sephiroth was the most powerful result of the Jenova project. I'd like to add that all this "Sephiroth versus Jenova" stuff everybody's always harping about is nonsense. Sephiroth essentially is Jenova, manifested in human form. Their motives and actions are the same. Look to the concept of the trinity in Christian mythology, which this relationship was probably based on (hence Jenova -> Jehova), for an analogy. Gotcha, evil alien infests human, hiuman becomes evil, they are the same. Well, yes, erm, Sephiroth wanting power is the same as Jenova wanting to kill... things. I suppose. Sephiroth = destroy life to get power?. Evil Alien thing = Grr! Die. Or really could have just hated the ancients. Well Also, a trinity of two. ANd Jesus Mind Control! Your english teacher loved your imagination.   Cloud is a normal guy who wants to be big and tough. (Says his Childhood) He gets killed by Sephiroth who plummets to his death as well with cloud IMPALED ON HIS SWORD. (Says Cutscene as he impales cloud and cloud plunges them both into giant death pool of mako) His friends think he has amnesia and are afraid to tell him the truth because it will destroy him. (Says Tifa) Somewhere in this story, both of them re-emerge as clones. I think you may be the one with amnesia. Cloud wasn't killed by Sephiroth, and he didn't fall into the lifestream with him. He was stabbed through the shoulder before overpowering Sephiroth and tossing him into the lifestream. He was then found by Hojo on the catwalk and entered into the Jenova project along with Zack, where they were treated with Jenova cells and Mako energy. Or was clearly and unapologetically stabbed through the stomach. According to the game, and everyone else but you. Here, look! Watch: http://dl.speeddemosarchive.com/FinalFantasy7_PC_741/FinalFantasy7_PC_741_part74.avi (100 meg Dl, sorry. 18:31 in) (Also, if you really like the game, that's it being beat in 7 hours and 41 minutes) I am 100% wrong. Cloud does not fall with Sephiroth, merely Hammer tosses him like he was a cushion then sits down dying from a god damn stab wound. I apologize for that inaccuracy, mostly because the scene where Cloud is sitting still, it looks like the bastard fell off too, but I was 100% wrong on that. Final Fantasy 7. Where some stomach wounds are instantly fatal, and others let you throw insanely powerful people to their death while people stronger than you get cut up (Also already given cells to become even better). Also, no one strangely dies in some very unusual circumstances. Naturally, Hojo is instantly mentioned comming to get them and toss them in the mansion (Hey vince!) to treat them. Wait, I'm sure there is somewhere... but where the hell is that? CLoud's story goes "Dying" to "Dying in Midgar". Someone? Bueller? Neither Cloud nor Sephiroth are clones of anyone, or at least not in the sense we think of clones. Sephiroth didn't die when he fell into the lifestream: his body became infused with the knowledge of the ancients and it drifted to the northern crater, where it remained until the final battle of the game. The manifestations of Sephiroth encountered through the rest of the game were various parts of Jenova's body made to look like Sephiroth through Jenova's power of illusion. As for Cloud, he was a clone only in Hojo's strange definition: "Sephiroth clones" are just ordinary people who have been treated with Jenova cells/mako in an attempt to duplicate Sephiroth's impressive powers. Which completely explains why this guy is suddenly all powerful. He's been encased in ice from a fatal fall caused by someone entirely not powerful! Genius! Naturally, people best described as "Immobile" failures are also walking around, massacaring things, physical clones, look alike clones, then getting cut up by the... child of Jenova as you called him for... purposes of...? Making a scene where a guy in black cuts up another guy in black? Hojo: I will creat SOLDIERS by giving them Jenova cells! Hey look, wounded SOLDIERS (and cloud, passed out dying) I'll... do the same thing I've done to everyone else! Ignoring Tifa, of course. Whos rescuer ignores the others, of course. And then they'll escape me! Now, does anyone have any criticisms of FFVII's story that aren't based on misconceptions/stupidity? They don't exist. There is quite a lot of stupidity in the story, and that would be the basis of the criticism, and inconsistency isn't the same as a misconception.

 

I actually watched videos of the game and read some geeky FF chronicles to get my responses. This is a renewed hatred. Even fixing my flawed memory still reveals some impressive badness.

Also, so Cloud's not a clone, he's... a regular guy, who mysteriously "Kills" the most powerful guy in the world, survives a wound to the stomach that kills Aeris, then coincidentally gets kidnapped and survives a make treatment that makes others worthless and immobile.

Also, when I am presented new information, particularily if I base my viewpoint on something that was wrong, I am able to adjust my views on something. Consequently, the enormous number of Sephiroth clones does somehow allow me to still hate the clone factor. Also, I suppose forcing me to look for more negatives made me find more negatives, but I suppose I can accept that Cloud is not a clone. I was wrong on that one too.

I'm having a little trouble following you here. But if you're asking about how Sephiroth and Jenova share the same motives, you can think of it like this: Jenova was essentially a virus. Its goal was to infect and take over every living thing on the planet. Sephiroth hoped to do the same thing by injuring the planet and absorbing the lifestream. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it.

I dunno. To me, it looks pretty clearly like it's going through the right shoulder:

At worst, it's through the center of the chest, which isn't necessarily fatal given immediate medical treatment (which Cloud had). The state of medicine in FFVII's world isn't explained all that well, but it seems quite advanced. The healing effects of Mako and Jenova's cells are hinted at as well.

In any case, I think this is a pretty minor detail. 

How exactly Cloud overpowered Sephiroth when everyone else failed is up for some debate. I tend to think this scene is telling us that Sephiroth was never the all-powerful god figure he was made out to be. He was ultimately just a man. There's also some suggestion that Jenova cells don't precisely make a soldier "stronger," but just enable him to resist death, as Lucretia says. (Obviously this ties back to how Cloud survived his stab wound if it really was to his chest and how Sephiroth survived his fall). Finally, you should look to the underlying meaning of the scene, which is that Cloud did have an immense inner strength after all, despite how weak he felt--it just wasn't the kind of strength that would get him into SOLDIER. It's an extremely powerful scene in any case.

Oh, and if you really want to get practical about it, keep in mind that Sephiroth had just been stabbed through the back with a foot-wide blade, something that would have already killed anyone else. Obviously he was weakened. 

 

I... don't really follow you here. Is it that you don't believe Hojo came and picked up Cloud and the others from the reactor? Then it sounds like you missed this optional scene which covers some of those events. The remaining missing events are explained through dialogue with Hojo and from the documents you can read in various places: just after Sephiroth fell into the reactor, Hojo and some Shinra soldiers arrived at the scene. They rounded up all the survivors and enlisted them into the Jenova project. They then rebuilt the town to cover up what had happened. The Nibelheim survivors were injected with Jenova cells and tattooed, and became the "Sephiroth clones." (Again, they weren't literally clones of him).

 I don't know why you figure he's all-powerful. In person, Sephiroth doesn't really do anything all that amazing. Are you thinking of the final battle and all the crazy galaxy-destroying shit he does? Most of that didn't actually happen.

"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova."

Sephiroth, being half-Jenova, possesses that power of illusion. The ridiculously over-the-top events of the final battle are a strong hint about that. 

Or if you're thinking of when he was flying around killing people on the cargo ship and elsewhere, remember that that wasn't Sephiroth himself. It was the various body parts of Jenova, which, largely as a result of his trip through the lifestream and the knowledge it gave him, Sephiroth had gained the power to control. Jenova had a lot of strange powers, but there's nothing too surprising about that. She was an alien monster-thingy.

 

No, those weren't physical/look-alike clones either. As I said above, the people in the black capes were the citizens of Nibelheim, twisted by the Jenova project. Sephiroth could control them to a certain extent (just as he controlled Cloud) because they had Jenova cells in their bodies. But the "Sephiroths" who were actually running around in his form massacring things were Jenova body parts manipulated to resemble Sephiroth, not the "clones." The "clones" didn't do much more than stagger around moaning on their way to the northern crater, and poke around for the black materia a bit.

As for why they were cut up when they reached the crater, it was to complete the "Jenova Reunion." They had to be killed so that Sephiroth could retrieve the Jenova cells within them and reconstruct his body.

I don't see your problem with this. If whatshisname-the-martial-arts-guy could only carry out one person, why is it hard to believe he would choose his dearest student? And Hojo didn't ignore Tifa -- she was rescued before he got there.

It wasn't a coincidence that he was kidnapped. Shinra had to round up and silence every witness to cover up what Sephiroth (and they) had done, and putting them in the Jenova project was the obvious thing to do.

And the treatment did make Cloud worthless and immobile -- that's what the scene you mentioned of him "dying in Midgar" was all about. He wasn't dying -- he was suffering from severe Mako poisoning and disorientation as a result of what happened to him. He recovered because Tifa found him and he was able to latch onto her memory and the memory of Zack, and reconstruct a personality for himself. But the new personality was unstable and full of holes, which is why he was so screwed up for most of the game. 

FFVII's story is remarkably well put-together and internally consistent. I'm more impressed with it every time I look at it.

Borkachev said: FFVII's story is remarkably well put-together and internally consistent. I'm more impressed with it every time I look at it.

A truly well put-together story shouldn't need to have people explain it. 

Utter nonsense. There's an entire academic field dedicated to analyzing great works of literature and finding the deeper subtext: uncovering connections, meanings, and interpretations of events that aren't apparent on the surface. 400 years later, people are still hotly debating the most basic questions about Hamlet -- was the ghost real? What were Hamlet's real motivations? And so on. Does this mean Hamlet wasn't well put-together? No, obviously it means just the opposite.

Not that everything that obscures a plot is necessarily intentional or helpful. A certain amount of the confusion over FFVII's story is due to the poor translation (for instance, that word "clones" has caused no end of trouble. I imagine that if/when they do a remake, they'll use a different term there or at least explain it better). There could probably also be a few extra scenes to clarify a few basic points, and it wouldn't hurt to make some of the pivotal scenes, like the one I linked above, part of the main story instead of optional.

But most of the ambiguity is deliberate, and I think it only improves the story. The abrupt ending is an example (although Advent Children kind of spoiled it, I don't pay that movie much heed). Another one is the escape from Shinra HQ: the characters assume that Sephiroth broke in, stole Jenova's body, and unlocked their cells. In fact, Jenova's body itself actually came to life during the night (controlled by Sephiroth), smashed out of its pod, slithered around, killed a few Shinra folk, and unlocked the cells. That's such an unbelievably awesome, creepy image, and it's made all the better by the fact that we don't see a single second of it. We only see the aftermath, and it's not clear that the game's characters ever really piece together what happened.

Things like this. This is why FFVII is a masterpiece.

Words Of Wisdom said: Borkachev said: FFVII's story is remarkably well put-together and internally consistent. I'm more impressed with it every time I look at it. A truly well put-together story shouldn't need to have people explain it.

You're kidding right? Any story that people don't understand isn't well put-together? Considering how stupid most of America is that means pretty much anything past third grade level is poorly written.

 

I'll also say this about the boost FF7 gets from hype.

FF7 is Leo J's favorite FF. He has never played a FF game. Ever.

This is likely true for a lot of people.

Borkachev said: A truly well put-together story shouldn't need to have people explain it. Utter nonsense. There's an entire academic field dedicated to analyzing great works of literature and finding the deeper subtext: uncovering connections, meanings, and interpretations of events that aren't apparent on the surface. 400 years later, people are still hotly debating the most basic questions about Hamlet -- was the ghost real? What were Hamlet's real motivations? And so on. Does this mean Hamlet wasn't well put-together? No, obviously it means just the opposite. Not that everything that obscures a plot is necessarily intentional or helpful. A certain amount of the confusion over FFVII's story is due to the poor translation (for instance, that word "clones" has caused no end of trouble. I imagine that if/when they do a remake, they'll use a different term there or at least explain it better). There could probably also be a few extra scenes to clarify a few basic points, and it wouldn't hurt to make some of the pivotal scenes, like the one I linked above, part of the main story instead of optional. But most of the ambiguity is deliberate, and I think it only improves the story. The abrupt ending is an example (although Advent Children kind of spoiled it, I don't pay that movie much heed). Another one is the escape from Shinra HQ: the characters assume that Sephiroth broke in, stole Jenova's body, and unlocked their cells. In fact, Jenova's body itself actually came to life during the night (controlled by Sephiroth), smashed out of its pod, slithered around, killed a few Shinra folk, and unlocked the cells. That's such an unbelievably awesome, creepy image, and it's made all the better by the fact that we don't see a single second of it. We only see the aftermath, and it's not clear that the game's characters ever really piece together what happened. Things like this. This is why FFVII is a masterpiece.

The problem with your analogy is that we're not talking about literature, we're not talking about scholars debating literary meanings, and we're not playing a game of Hamlet.

It's much easier to see the trend in movies so I'll use them as an example. You see all the old movies on TV that have 5 stars however few watch them anymore. Most everyone flips to a different channel and watches a more current movie that may be as low as 2 stars; you see this all the time with 5 star musicals as musicals in many ways have fallen to the way side (except in live production) as well as many black and white movies. The reason is that those types of movies have quite simply gone out of style. No matter how well received they were nor highly rated, their time has passed.

Now let's go to literature for a moment. When you ask someone what their favorite book is, they're unlikely to say "Hamlet" or "Macbeth" rather they are far more likely to give a more current author and book title. Why? Because older novels have in many ways lost much of the greatness they once had. Scholars will argue against it that they are still great and still amazing, but you don't find the general public reading them for fun or pleasure anymore. I'd wager most people who have read many books considered to be great literary classics did so in school because it was required.

To put it bluntly, "peoples' taste in literature has changed since the days of Hamlet." Arguing that an obfuscated story is somehow better than a transparent story because authors 400 years ago created some that were very popular is a silly argument. Would you also like to argue that the world is flat? That concept was popular once upon a time too.

Now, let's move this discussion away from literature and back to games which is its own unique type of media unto itself. It's much harder to give depth to characters in a game because the player controls them and makes decisions. In order to give depth to characters you must take away player involvement. In RPGs, usually the characters all talk amongst themselves and make decisions independently of the player and, in others, the player is allowed to make decisions every once in a while. In some RPGs, the player faces an obstacle and in others a cutscene occurs and the characters face it. Only seeing the character's personalities when not in control limits the characters' development. Also, the player is unable to see the whole story unfold from all angles as in some cases it would provide an in-game advantage to the player which becomes another limitation of games.

As these limitations add up, you need to compensate for them. The result is often stories which might look great on paper can translate into awful games and game that play excellently can translate into awful stories. Final Fantasy VII is in many ways an example of the former. There's too much obfuscation likely intentional and unintentional (translation). And because there are far more limitations in games for storytelling, obfuscation makes a tough situation even worse. As it is, the game spends far too much time simply moving the characters forward and rehashing the past to actually provide a level of depth consistent with the expectations of those who appreciated Final Fantasy VI. It kept trying to give subtle hints by revisiting the past and shoehorning that into the game that is failed to develop the present. Locke of FFVI alone arguably had more character development and personality than practically the entirety of the FFVII cast.

Does any of this mean that FFVII was a bad game? Not really. However, a masterpiece it was not.

Kasz216 said: I'll also say this about the boost FF7 gets from hype. FF7 is Leo J's favorite FF. He has never played a FF game. Ever. This is likely true for a lot of people.

I doubt most people that never played the game love it. Just cause a few idiots do doesn't mean a thing. I also have no idea who Leo-J is but if he's some random VGchartz poster(or any random person on or offline) I'm gonna have to say he's pretty irrelevent

 

CrashMan said: Borkachev said: Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: oh and Jenova isn't controlling Sephiroth it's the other way around. The story writer said that. Sephiroth is the one that killed Aeris not Jenova. Everytime you run into him he sends a piece of Jenova down to fight you and at the end he's the final boss not Jenova. He's the one responsible for most of the events in FFVII by his direct actions. Jenova was evil and he was influenced by her but not in the way of mind control. Sephiroth set to carry out what Jenova started not because she was controlling him but because that's what he wanted to do. Had he succeeded with his goal, he would have become a god, not Jenova. If there is a main villain other than Sephy in the game then it's gotta be Hojo, as he has a hand in almost everything that went down in the game. If you have to talk to the storywriter after playing the game to figure out what happened.... It didn't have a good story. Or... You're not smart enough to understand the story. The answers to questions like these are all contained within the plot; the commentary from the writers just confirmed it. FFVII has some flaws which I'm acutely aware of. And based on the somewhat inconsistent work put out by the writers before and since, I have a suspicion that FFVII may have been something of an accidental masterpiece. But it's a masterpiece nonetheless, and anyone who claims otherwise isn't fit to judge it. Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner for the most ignorant post in the thread! Congrats!

Is MrMarc still here? This is just a small sample of what I and many others hear have had to go through over the years. FF7 couldn't be further away from a Masterpiece. Well actually it could, but then it would be FF8.

 

I don't want to get too deep into this because I don't think it's very relevant and I don't want to get off track. My argument has nothing to do with personal taste, age, or the popularity of works. I'll say this much:

-"Classics" are generally regarded as such for a reason. People's taste in stories changes, but the elements that make a good story are universal. The greatness of a story doesn't fade. Its relevance can fade (as with some satire and social commentary, for instance) but this isn't a given and relevance is independent of "greatness."
-Among more educated people, I think you'll find that great literary classics are actually quite frequently cited as favorites. Shakespeare's plays are still the most performed of any productions in the world. Does every person who attends them do so as a school assignment?

Now, I countered those points because they bugged me. I'm not sure they have any relevance to this discussion, though. For what it's worth, I don't particularly think that FFVII is a great work of literature. Being a great piece of literature has more to do with the thematic depth of the work, which is somewhere FFVII doesn't really compare to something like Hamlet. (Probably the only game I'd call a great work of literature is FF Tactics). I think FFVII is a good work of literature, up there with anything in the genre -- just not "great."

What FFVII is is a great story. The difference isn't always obvious, but a great story has more to do with having a tightly written narrative, a compelling plot and characters, and an overall high entertainment value. The latter two are hard to prove objectively, so I've been focusing more on the former in this thread.


My argument had nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the story. I mentioned the 400 years number solely to show how much material there is for discussion in that particular play; it could have been written yesterday and it would be the same. My point was that complex, multilayered stories offer far more "meat" for the reader and, yes, are better for it.


There isn't any fundamental difference between games and other mediums that would change the basic principles of good storytelling. Point by point:


To give depth to characters you need to take away player control, but taking away player control limits character development? Aren't these contradictory? And in any case, in every single other medium the audience isn't in control of the characters' development either. Why is it only a problem in games? FF games are all told as a basically linear, scripted, 3rd-person narrative, just like any other medium.


What cases do you have in mind? Every medium hides some aspects of the plot from the audience as it unfolds, because that's simply good storytelling. The Sixth Sense would be awfully pointless if the truth were revealed from the outset. Games are no more restricted in this way than any other medium. FFVII bounces its perspective around between characters just as any movie or novel would do. (And of course, other novels/movies/etc. use a first-person or limited third-person perspective, which is far more limiting than what FFVII uses. They do it deliberately as a narrative technique, and many of them are better for it).


Ah. I didn't want to get into FFVI, but I guess it was inevitable. I'll say this much. When we talk about FFVI's plot against the plot of later games, we're not even talking about the same thing. FFVI was essentially a fairy tale. It was a fun, wacky little yarn that strung some events and some stock characters together to justify the game it was built around. It never attempted nor pretended to be anything more, and I have a feeling the creators would agree. There's nothing wrong with that. But you're comparing My Neighbour Totoro to Akira.