Words Of Wisdom said: Entroper said: FF7 didn't kill the N64. But it certainly did make the Playstation. @WoW, I think it's safe to assume that 95% or more FF7 players played the game on a Playstation, not a PC. The PC versions of FF7 and FF8 were some of the buggiest pieces of software I have ever seen. Have you actually seen them first hand or are you just pulling this out of your arse? Am I really to believe that both games have these massive bug problems that I've never seen despite replaying them multiple times each on different computers? Even you must admit that from my standpoint that seems extremely farfetched.

No, I am not pulling this out of my ass, yes, I have seen the PC versions of both FF7 and FF8 attempting to run on my own computer, and my friends' computers in college.

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Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: rocketpig said: Edouble24 said: twesterm said: libellule said: and yes, many nintendo fan bash FF7 because it is, in part, what killed the N64 (when other FF7 have pushed the Nintendo system) Find me one person that actually thinks that. Most people don't actually admit that's their reason for disliking the game. I could find you someone but she's a complete idiot so I wouldn't bothering using her as evidence. Still fanboys disliking games for being on another console is quite common, especially with Nintendo fans from what I've seen on the internet, more evident with Xbox fans offline, but it certainly happens all the time. FFVII is a huge title, it sold amazingly well, received great reviews and is considered to be one of the greatest game of all time by many, any game of that status attracts attention for fanboys and they'll bash it. I've seen people ignorantly bash plenty of games from the IGN forums, to GAF and especially Gamefaqs. No one ever says "I hate FFVII cause it wasn't on N64" but people who clearly have never played it or given it a chance do hate it, just like many other popular titles out there. You get the same thing with games like Halo. It's massively popular so some gamers will go out of their way to bash the shit out of it. Personally, I really like Halo. I don't think it's the best FPS ever, but I enjoy it. I also thought FFVII was "okay". After playing some of the earlier FFs, it really let me down at points. The difference in threads like these is that you have loads of people who are JRPG fanatics and they dislike the game for very specific reasons, not because it was the most popular. Hit a Halo thread and you'll see PC gamers openly mocking the game for the same reasons. Both are very valid reasons to dislike or underplay a game because the people speaking have the experience and knowledge to back up their claims, unlike frothing fanboys who hate something simply because it exists. oh I've said that the people in this thread seem to have legit opinions, I haven't bashed anyone in this thread, but the OP was asking about why people hate FFVII in general and this is one of the many reasons. Others dislike the story, others feel it ruined the FF series and some people just do it because it's 'cool' to hate popular things on the internet. But a lot of hardcore Nintendo fanboys(the stupid ones) have something against things like FFVII, Halo and GTA for no real reason. Just like most Xbox fanboys I know offline just call everything Nintendo 'gay' And Kasz...If you're honestly gonna tell me that anyone that started playing RPGs from SNES and up have a blind opinion on their favorite RPG because it was their first one...that's just foolish. I know a lot of people that didn't start with FFVII that still find it to be the best. FFVII is well liked because it's a great game, no amount of foolish excuses as to why people like it wont change that. Really that argument exists mainly because people who can't accept the fact that other people disagree with them need to find a reason as to why the majority is uninformed or flat out stupid.     Note how in my last post i mentioned how it's not always someones favorite. However someones first always gets bumped up in quality quite a bit. (or at least that's how they see it.) That's true of your first, anything you had good expierences with. Yea you did say that which is why I feel it's a weak argument. But if you really think that's why people love FFVII I wont try to change your mind anymore. I've said enough regarding the 'first RPG' argument and I think it's a tiny factor, if you disagree so be it.    No.  I'm saying that's why there is some merit to it.  As FF7 was a LOT of peoples first RPG.  As such a lot of people would be effected by this.  Just because the effect doesn't effect everyone equally it doesn't mean that it isn't going to effect a lot of people.  A lot has to do with FF7 being the first "cool" RPG too because it was the first RPG that was really mainstream.  Take a look at Ipods.  They are really inferior MP3 players in comparison to most of the rest of the market.  Yet Ipods are the most popular MP3's players out there.  Most people would say they were the best. Pretty much the only people who disagree are people who either A) Hate Ipods because of their popularity or B) Had at least 1 other MP3 player before the Ipods emergence.

If I was using an iPod I and then used something superior I wouldn't go back to the iPod. Most people that name the iPod haven't even used another MP3 player. Now if FFVII was your ONLY RPG and it was your favorite RPG ever...that's really not a big deal. But I can't see many people using a product superior to the iPod but still claiming the iPod is better because it's what they used first.

That's just me though. 

 

Edouble explained why Sephiroth was the most powerful result of the Jenova project. I'd like to add that all this "Sephiroth versus Jenova" stuff everybody's always harping about is nonsense. Sephiroth essentially is Jenova, manifested in human form. Their motives and actions are the same. Look to the concept of the trinity in Christian mythology, which this relationship was probably based on (hence Jenova -> Jehova), for an analogy.


I think you may be the one with amnesia. Cloud wasn't killed by Sephiroth, and he didn't fall into the lifestream with him. He was stabbed through the shoulder before overpowering Sephiroth and tossing him into the lifestream. He was then found by Hojo on the catwalk and entered into the Jenova project along with Zack, where they were treated with Jenova cells and Mako energy.

Neither Cloud nor Sephiroth are clones of anyone, or at least not in the sense we think of clones. Sephiroth didn't die when he fell into the lifestream: his body became infused with the knowledge of the ancients and it drifted to the northern crater, where it remained until the final battle of the game. The manifestations of Sephiroth encountered through the rest of the game were various parts of Jenova's body made to look like Sephiroth through Jenova's power of illusion. As for Cloud, he was a clone only in Hojo's strange definition: "Sephiroth clones" are just ordinary people who have been treated with Jenova cells/mako in an attempt to duplicate Sephiroth's impressive powers.

Now, does anyone have any criticisms of FFVII's story that aren't based on misconceptions/stupidity?

Edouble24 said: Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: rocketpig said: Edouble24 said: twesterm said: libellule said: and yes, many nintendo fan bash FF7 because it is, in part, what killed the N64 (when other FF7 have pushed the Nintendo system) Find me one person that actually thinks that. Most people don't actually admit that's their reason for disliking the game. I could find you someone but she's a complete idiot so I wouldn't bothering using her as evidence. Still fanboys disliking games for being on another console is quite common, especially with Nintendo fans from what I've seen on the internet, more evident with Xbox fans offline, but it certainly happens all the time. FFVII is a huge title, it sold amazingly well, received great reviews and is considered to be one of the greatest game of all time by many, any game of that status attracts attention for fanboys and they'll bash it. I've seen people ignorantly bash plenty of games from the IGN forums, to GAF and especially Gamefaqs. No one ever says "I hate FFVII cause it wasn't on N64" but people who clearly have never played it or given it a chance do hate it, just like many other popular titles out there. You get the same thing with games like Halo. It's massively popular so some gamers will go out of their way to bash the shit out of it. Personally, I really like Halo. I don't think it's the best FPS ever, but I enjoy it. I also thought FFVII was "okay". After playing some of the earlier FFs, it really let me down at points. The difference in threads like these is that you have loads of people who are JRPG fanatics and they dislike the game for very specific reasons, not because it was the most popular. Hit a Halo thread and you'll see PC gamers openly mocking the game for the same reasons. Both are very valid reasons to dislike or underplay a game because the people speaking have the experience and knowledge to back up their claims, unlike frothing fanboys who hate something simply because it exists. oh I've said that the people in this thread seem to have legit opinions, I haven't bashed anyone in this thread, but the OP was asking about why people hate FFVII in general and this is one of the many reasons. Others dislike the story, others feel it ruined the FF series and some people just do it because it's 'cool' to hate popular things on the internet. But a lot of hardcore Nintendo fanboys(the stupid ones) have something against things like FFVII, Halo and GTA for no real reason. Just like most Xbox fanboys I know offline just call everything Nintendo 'gay' And Kasz...If you're honestly gonna tell me that anyone that started playing RPGs from SNES and up have a blind opinion on their favorite RPG because it was their first one...that's just foolish. I know a lot of people that didn't start with FFVII that still find it to be the best. FFVII is well liked because it's a great game, no amount of foolish excuses as to why people like it wont change that. Really that argument exists mainly because people who can't accept the fact that other people disagree with them need to find a reason as to why the majority is uninformed or flat out stupid.     Note how in my last post i mentioned how it's not always someones favorite. However someones first always gets bumped up in quality quite a bit. (or at least that's how they see it.) That's true of your first, anything you had good expierences with. Yea you did say that which is why I feel it's a weak argument. But if you really think that's why people love FFVII I wont try to change your mind anymore. I've said enough regarding the 'first RPG' argument and I think it's a tiny factor, if you disagree so be it.   No. I'm saying that's why there is some merit to it. As FF7 was a LOT of peoples first RPG. As such a lot of people would be effected by this. Just because the effect doesn't effect everyone equally it doesn't mean that it isn't going to effect a lot of people. A lot has to do with FF7 being the first "cool" RPG too because it was the first RPG that was really mainstream. Take a look at Ipods. They are really inferior MP3 players in comparison to most of the rest of the market. Yet Ipods are the most popular MP3's players out there. Most people would say they were the best. Pretty much the only people who disagree are people who either A) Hate Ipods because of their popularity or B) Had at least 1 other MP3 player before the Ipods emergence. If I was using an iPod I and then used something superior I wouldn't go back to the iPod. Most people that name the iPod haven't even used another MP3 player. Now if FFVII was your ONLY RPG and it was your favorite RPG ever...that's really not a big deal. But I can't see many people using a product superior to the iPod but still claiming the iPod is better because it's what they used first. That's just me though.

A lot of people who have played Final Fantasy 7 pretty much only play RPGs named Final Fantasy. This can be backed up by the popularity of FF7 in the west not really doing anything to stimulate RPG sales in other games not named Final Fantasy.

Considering the drop in quality in Final Fantasy games lately... once again I don't see that being too much of a problem. RPGs in generally would be struggling in quality if it wasn't for the smaller developers and super niche RPGS like Persona.

Also most people if they use a different MP3 player won't think it's better because they are used to the Ipods control method. The different MP3 player wouldn't have the little slide circle so it's difference would be considered "bad".

That's why your first encounter often biases you towards said product. Because that first expierence is what ends up defining the genre, product... whatever to you.

 

ffvii is the best game
or at least one of the best

together with goldeneye 64, metal gear solid and mario kart double dash
my best games

well I'll just say that Final Fantasy VII is also loved in the east, where RPGs were very popular long before it's arrival. It beat out FFVI in a fan-based Famitsu and was voted the second greatest game of all time(behind FFX). So there must be something about this FFVII game that people like, aside the fact that it may or may not have been their first RPG.

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Borkachev said: Kasz216 said: Edouble24 said: oh and Jenova isn't controlling Sephiroth it's the other way around. The story writer said that. Sephiroth is the one that killed Aeris not Jenova. Everytime you run into him he sends a piece of Jenova down to fight you and at the end he's the final boss not Jenova. He's the one responsible for most of the events in FFVII by his direct actions. Jenova was evil and he was influenced by her but not in the way of mind control. Sephiroth set to carry out what Jenova started not because she was controlling him but because that's what he wanted to do. Had he succeeded with his goal, he would have become a god, not Jenova. If there is a main villain other than Sephy in the game then it's gotta be Hojo, as he has a hand in almost everything that went down in the game. If you have to talk to the storywriter after playing the game to figure out what happened.... It didn't have a good story.  Or...  You're not smart enough to understand the story. The answers to questions like these are all contained within the plot; the commentary from the writers just confirmed it. FFVII has some flaws which I'm acutely aware of.  And based on the somewhat inconsistent work put out by the writers before and since, I have a suspicion that FFVII may have been something of an accidental masterpiece. But it's a masterpiece nonetheless, and anyone who claims otherwise isn't fit to judge it.

 Ding Ding Ding Ding!  We have a winner for the most ignorant post in the thread!  Congrats!

Now this is interesting. Your entire loathing of the story was based on your hatred of clones, and I've just explained that the story actually has nothing to do with clones and never did. How are you going to deal with the cognitive dissonance there? Are you going to reexamine your whole belief from its foundation and change your perspective? Or are you going to invent an entirely new reason to hate it and pretend that was the reason you hated it all along?

 Edit:

Please, if you'd like to debate me on this, join right in. That's all I've wanted from the start. So far, no one has given a compelling argument against what I've been saying about this game for the last 10 years.