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Veknoid_Outcast on 02 October 2013
the-pi-guy said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Now you're the one speaking in absolutes. 

Like it or not, I can be troubled by just about anything I want, your criteria notwithstanding. Again, there was no implication of anything beyond what I literally said: that I was bothered by his vision of video games. There's no secret message buried there. His vision for games is far different from my own. That's it.

As for your second paragraph, yes, movies and some games are similar in that they share a cinematic presentation and follow similar narrative logic, but they are so dissimilar in terms of storytelling and interactivity that the comparison becomes pointless. A game has more than one storyteller and is subject to change. A movie has a single storyteller and cannot be changed. Watch The Graduate 1,000 times and it will always end the same way; play Final Fantasy VII 1,000 times and you can experience it 1,000 different ways.

I just think Cage is barking up the wrong tree. Developers should be looking at new ways to PLAY games, not new ways to extract "meaning" from them.

Well, I think looking for new ways to extract meaning is Cage's motivation for finding new ways to play.  New ideas are rarely just formed, they are often created by taking influence from other areas.  His taking ideas from movies isn't a bad thing, it's a great thing.  We're finally at a place where we can comfortably take lessons from another source (movies) and apply them to games with in many ways impressive results.  

Interactive story telling like Cage is doing is awesome because it is not really something that games try to do, well lately they have been in their own ways and movies can't do.  You and I can play Beyond and get different story lines.  We can both take very different things away from playing it.  With movies that is not the case and with most games that is not the case.  

I don't know about that. I think his talk about "meaning" and "emotion" signals that his interest is in storytelling, not in developing new and interesting mechanics, which, in my mind, are the bedrock of video games. In other words, he's not finding new ways to play; he's finding new ways to show. And while video games are clearly a visual medium, they are first a foremost a set of rules and challenges that players must obey and overcome, respectively. Therein lies the challenge of games, therein lies the fun. Cage seems to want to take the window dressing and make it sine qua non, and that, to me, is a disaster in the making.



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Veknoid_Outcast on 02 October 2013
CGI-Quality said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
CGI-Quality said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:

This is a video game forum, is it not? We're here to discuss what we like, what we don't like, what we're excited for, etc. If my opinion on a matter won't "stop the games from coming" should I just keep it to myself? Should everyone? There would be a lot of empty forum posts on this site if that's the case.

You're entitled to your opinion and can post it where you like (and never once did I say otherwise), just don't expect people to stay silent on your view when your complaints have simple remedies.

On the contrary, I'm eager to hear opposing viewpoints. What I've heard from you mostly, though, is that my opinion is immaterial and that it will effect zero change in the industry. I'd like to hear from you why you think I'm wrong about Cage's vision. I don't really want to hear that my posts on VGChartz.com won't stop production on Beyond. Because I know that.

Well, in all positivety, there are more exaggerations, I feel, in your thoughts than errors. I don't think Cage's games are movies, just like I don't feel games that aim for cinema quality are a cause for concern. Cage's vision speaks to the industry, yes, but will maily affect a minority. As I said earlier, unless it became wide spread, which I wouldn't want either, I don't see much of a reason to be concerned.

If I exaggerated Cage's influence on the industry, then I apologize. But I take this very seriously. As a lover of movies and of video games, I understand the limitations of each medium. Hearing Cage talk about creating algorithms that would recreate famous directors' shooting techniques in a video game is very disconcerting for me, especially because the trend in recent years has been to make high-budget games look and feel like movies. I believe strongly that this is a huge blunder, and I believe strongly that the effects these studios are trying to achieve can easily be accomplished without looking to the box office. Look to the past, instead. Look to games like The Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy IV, Tomb Raider, and Deux Ex. These games, and hundreds more, managed to capture the imagination and attention of their audiences without transforming the experience into an interactive movie.



petroleo on 02 October 2013
melbye said:
I think this game is going to get mauled by reviewers, gameplay looks rough

 For me the demo was freaking awesome, but I already see this game as one of those games that people will love it or just plain hate it, it will get alot of mixed scores, from 5 to 9.5 .  

 



Veknoid_Outcast on 03 October 2013
the-pi-guy said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:

I don't know about that. I think his talk about "meaning" and "emotion" signals that his interest is in storytelling, not in developing new and interesting mechanics, which, in my mind, are the bedrock of video games. In other words, he's not finding new ways to play; he's finding new ways to show. And while video games are clearly a visual medium, they are first a foremost a set of rules and challenges that players must obey and overcome, respectively. Therein lies the challenge of games, therein lies the fun. Cage seems to want to take the window dressing and make it sine qua non, and that, to me, is a disaster in the making.

My vision of video games is different from yours, the reason that I love video games is because they are capable of so much.  I can play Super Mario Bros. and then play The Last of Us.  The variety two games that are very different in structure and in purpose that it is almost strange to think that they are put in the same category(gaming).  I think games are capable of far better story telling than movies(even though we might not quite be there) and we are going to get more and better ways for playing games.  New ways to play to show is still new ways to play.  

@bolded: Some would argue that "video games" is an outdated term.  There are a lot of reasons that some would consider games fun, even without challenges.  There was even a thread about why we played video games not too long ago and most people did not say fun was the reason.  A lot of us had very different reasons.  Perhaps the only rule to a game is to have fun and complete your own goals regardless of what other games dictate.  

Fair enough, to each his own. Although I don't see a very big difference between Super Mario Bros. and The Last of Us, apart from presentation and sophistication. They both conform to my definition of a game, i.e., composed of a set of mechanics and rules that determine how a game plays and how a player interacts with that game. As I said, I believe the rules, concepts, and standards embedded in a game are far more important than characters and stories. But I understand and appreciate that many others see video games more as a type of interactive fiction. I, too, enjoy storytelling in video games. Some of the best games ever made, including Ocarina of Time, Halo, Metroid Prime, and Metal Gear Solid, all have captivating and well-told stories. I'm not suggesting we return to 1972 and slide paddles back and forth across a screen all day. Dramatic storytelling is a part of games, and has been for generations.

All I'm saying is that games are part art, part design, and for me the design element is more important and more consequential in terms of a game's greatness.