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Forums - Microsoft - Penello specifies why X1vsPS4 performance difference is overstated

DietSoap on 11 September 2013

"Adding to that, each of our CU's is running 6% faster. It's not simply a 6% clock speed increase overall."

Lol, is he for real? Pretty much everything there was a trick statement in a few different ways.



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Xenostar on 11 September 2013
Darth Tigris said:
Machiavellian said:
dsgrue3 said:

He actually did not prove anything...he cited an anonymous source of some "Technical Fellow." 

He posted factually incoherent information and was rightfully called out for it. Go read the thread and quit sipping the koolaid.

As to developers confirming a performance advantage for PS4, a simple google search is all that is required. I mean, really, are you so devoted to living in the dark that you won't actively seek out information for yourself?

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2013/07/xbox_one_developer_concedes_that_ps4_is_more_powerful

http://www.gamechup.com/war-thunder-dev-ps4-gpu-is-40-more-powerful-than-xbox-one-gpu/

http://www.edge-online.com/news/ps4-is-more-powerful-than-xbox-one-on-paper-but-microsoft-will-catch-up-says-avalanche-studios/


Nobody is arguing that there isn't a performance advantage (not even Penello), he's simply stating that the performance difference some people have been throwing around is overstated.

As for your links, the first one gives us nothing about raw numbers or how much of a performance difference there is, just that there is one, so it's basically useless.

As for the second link does the developer even have Xbox One development units?  If so could you tell us which Xbox One game he is working on as I couldn't find one and he appears to just be talking about the same stats that were published before.

Also that third link basically reinforces what Penello is saying so it makes no sense to use that one either.

I'm afraid I have to leave this quote tree infact since this person obviously cannot follow the above train.

The point of contention is in bold, but I'll paste it here so you can read it again. 

"Developers that have had there hands on both have said there is a noticable performance difference when they start developing on them."

This was the starting position of Xenostar. 

Then we have Darth Tigris following with:

"What developers?  People keep making statements like that with no proof"

This is what I'm responding to, precise metrics are completely unnecessary to this particular conversation. It's a deviation of the thread OP, perhaps attempt to understand what is being contested before chiming in with obsolete statements.

It's exceedingly tiring addressing the posts of overtly defensive fans of a certain ilk.

So the first link was from an Xbox developers that says Sony has the better specs.  Here is a quote from that link (basically the article if you read it)

"“The facts are on paper, the PS4 has better specs, and the most that you can debate is by how much,” said the refreshingly candid employee. “What I can tell you is that I have played Forza Motorsport 5,Killer Instinct, and Ryse on the Xbox One, and they look as good as the games that I play on a high-end PC. Ryse reminded me of Darksiders II.”"

The second link is from a developer who is not making a X1 game which invalidate your bolded point.  You bolded points says developers who has worked on both X1 and PS4 games.  The developer in the second link is stating specs not first hand experience which is very clear from the article.

The third one is from another developer that pretty much validated Albert point.  Here is a quote from the article

"We asked Avalanche’s chief technical officer Linus Blomberg how the two consoles compare. “It’s difficult to say, as it’s still early days when it comes to drivers,” he told us. “With each new driver release, performance increases dramatically in some areas. The PlayStation 4 environment is definitely more mature currently, so Microsoft has some catching up to do. But I’m not too concerned about that as they traditionally have been very good in that area. The specs on paper would favour the PS4 over the Xbox One in terms of raw power, but there are many other factors involved so we’ll just have to wait and see a bit longer before making that judgment.”

If anything, the only thing you did was provide more proof of what Albert is stating instead of anything else.

Thanks for that.

A teacher in high school used to repeat a saying so much that it got on my nerves:  a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.  

There are too many here with exactly that and they are convinced in their own minds that their view of things is the correct one.  Well Penello checked everything he stated with someone that actually worked on the Xbox One, so his words have a weight that none of those that challenge those words can compare to.  I acknowledge that they are favoring the Xbox One for obvious reasons, but the expertise involved is incomparable.  

That being the case, there's nothing left to debate on this subject anymore.  The games will tell the story, and so far they match up well with everything that Penello and others have stated:  parity.  We'll see the rest in time, though I'm sure perceived advantages will still be clear in the eyes of the biased beholders. Again, this is now a dead subject to me.

If it helps one of those developers was People Can Fly, the Gears of War dev. But as the MS managment dont know who they are maybe you dont either. 



orniletter on 11 September 2013

Can´t we just wait 4 more months to compare multiplat titles directly ?
We will see!

...and honestly: Who cares about "peak performance on paper", what counts is what developers can get out of the hardware (weather that favours the PS4 or Bone remains to be seen...my money is on the PS4)...PS2 vs. GameCube so to speak



Pemalite on 11 September 2013
Zappykins said:

True, I wish the new consoles had that kind of GPU power in them. But it would take something close to that to make much a visual difference, so I guess we should be happy they don't cost $1000 each.

Just curious, do you have a great than 1080P resolution monitor or multiples?  I don't know many that do, and nobody with a 4K yet.


I'm running triple 1440P monitors for a 7680x1440 resolution, pixel count wise that's about 25% higher than 4k.

Plenty of cheap 27" 2560x1440 monitors on the market these days anyway.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

petalpusher on 11 September 2013
Zappykins said:

There is so much more that 7950 has better.  So it should have a higher performance.  But even with all those advantages, it just over doubles performance, even with nearly three times the CU Cores.  It should be much higher. 

oh it works with the HD 7850 vs HD 7770 too (the HD 7770 still have way higher clock). I just took the extreme example that produces a 100% increase in performance with CU running at way lower clock. In fact it works with every gpu in GCN architecture, if you scale up the CU count, it performs better not on paper but in real world performance, and on the contrary, i would add, it just continue to scale up really well if you have more BW and ROPs in conjonction, just like the PS4 have. Between 7770/7790 and 7850/7870 there s a significant gap, it's a  50% real world performance difference, sometimes even more.

So try to spin the CU advantage over frequency or inefficiency, is just ridiculous.

And lets keep in mind the PS4's GPU have 18 CU, not 16 like the HD 7850, also more TMUs (+4), and more bandwidth than a HD 7870 (145 vs 176 GB/s),  ACEs customizations,..

Just a few days ago, we were debating the funny assumption that the X1 would get a 4.8 Tflops stacked "dgpu" (that was good laugh), now we re back to hd 7770/7790 level that would magically perform better than gpus with 50% more CUs and 100% more ROPs.

Xbox extremists always deliver in hardware discussions.



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Michelasso on 11 September 2013

"We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM)."

Ahhh.. now the bandwidths gets added. Not that the inferior one is a bottleneck for the larger.

Who wrote this crap? Penelllo?



mantlepiecek on 11 September 2013

I think people are forgetting the under-mentioned cloud in here. That is very important too. I heard somewhere that it boosts a machine's performance 40 times.



selnor1983 on 11 September 2013

Sorry but some people dont believe anything unless sony says so. Its true. Give it a rest people.

This response is accurate and very mature. Well done pennello.
To those saying microsoft give it a rest. Sony have talked about power and graphics way more than microsoft. Also trying to take regular jabs at microsoft recently.

This guy pennello originally answered some comments on tweetz and forums. Hes simply following up.
Its clear xbox one is designed differently than ps4.

The games this gen will only prove microsoft right. Ps4 will not have some great advantage that fans want to believe.

Xbox one with a bit of different programming will look just as good if not better.

I will predict considering 343i is full of top graphics engineers in the industry that halo 5 will take the lead as top graphics so far I the gen when its released. What those guys did with halo4 s engine was incredible.



Adinnieken on 11 September 2013
petalpusher said:

oh it works with the HD 7850 vs HD 7770 too (the HD 7770 still have way higher clock). I just took the extreme example that produces a 100% increase in performance with CU running at way lower clock. In fact it works with every gpu in GCN architecture, if you scale up the CU count, it performs better not on paper but in real world performance, and on the contrary, i would add, it just continue to scale up really well if you have more BW and ROPs in conjonction, just like the PS4 have. Between 7770/7790 and 7850/7870 there s a significant gap, it's a  50% real world performance difference, sometimes even more.

So try to spin the CU advantage over frequency or inefficiency, is just ridiculous.

And lets keep in mind the PS4's GPU have 18 CU, not 16 like the HD 7850, also more TMUs (+4), and more bandwidth than a HD 7870 (145 vs 176 GB/s),  ACEs customizations,..

Just a few days ago, we were debating the funny assumption that the X1 would get a 4.8 Tflops stacked "dgpu" (that was good laugh), now we re back to hd 7770/7790 level that would magically perform better than gpus with 50% more CUs and 100% more ROPs.

Xbox extremists always deliver in hardware discussions.

The problem is your assumption that this is about the Xbox One being better than the PS4.  It isn't.

It's about the performance features of the Xbox One mitigating the specification advantages of the PS4.  Does it make the Xbox One 1:1 to the PS4's specifications?  Nope.  But it does narrow the performance gap.

12 CUs will never be more than 18 CUs, but 12 CUs operating faster than 18 CUs will narrow the performance advantage of those 18 CUs.  That was Pennello's point. 



Adinnieken on 11 September 2013

 

mantlepiecek said:

I think people are forgetting the under-mentioned cloud in here. That is very important too. I heard somewhere that it boosts a machine's performance 40 times.

Was this really necessary?  How exactly did you positively contribute to the conversation?