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Forums - Politics - Why would conservative and libertarian be considered the same thing?

sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Ultimately, Libertarianism is not acceptable to the American political mainstream, which is why it only ever gains traction on the fringes, though it wins some of its small victories.

I think you're going to be surprised in the near future when there will not only be a large segement of libertarianism in the Republican party, but also the Democratic party. Do remember that until the 1930's, classical liberalism was the overwhelmingly dominant political philosophy in the United States, and it hasn't died as it had in Europe, and Asia (arguably never born in Asia.) 

not going to happen, the party's platform moves further from libertarianism and gets more more statist every election cycle.

i can forsee the the republican party perhaps fracturing, or splitting. we are starting to see that already. We have the establisment republicans that are progressive/ big governments-lite, and then you have the tea party types and the libertarian wings of the party. the latter groups are genuinelly for limited constituional government, the former part of the republican party as different from the democratic party as many people think. the last 4 years there has sort of been a clash within the republican party, of where its member want it to go.

but as for libertarianism gaining ground within the democratic party. not a chance, there's a greater probability of a 3rd party playing a major part in a presidential election than the DNC getting libertarians



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richardhutnik said:

Anyone here care to argue how libertarian and conservative are the same thing?

They aren't.

If political beliefs are a circle, then libertarians are the opposite of moderates.  Perpendicular to those and opposite of each other are progressive and conservative.

Right now, conservatives are being pulled toward liberalism, mainly because of the Libertarian views on government and taxes.  Good for Libertarians, bad for Republicans.  The Tea Party is the catalyst for this, as they're a driving force behind the far more conservative views in the Republican hemisphere right now.  But ultimately, most Republicans would eschew the social liberalism of true Libertarians. 

My sister and brother in-law agree on regulations, taxes, and big government but when it comes to abortion, and gay marriage, no.   



Gamecube said:
sc94597 said:
Gamecube said:
Libertarianism has overlap with both Conservatism and liberalism.
These are in general, I know there is more to it. :)
Conservatism: Small government
Liberalism: Larger government
Libertarianism: As small of governament as possible.
By this metric they are conservative.
Conservatives: Pro-life
Liberalism: Pro-choice
Libertarians: Pro-choice
Under this metric they are liberal
There is alot more to it, but everyone would get bored with all the nuances. As well as I type at a snails pace:).

Not all libertarians are pro-choice. There is an argument that it's a violation of the NAP by removing one's right to life. However, libertarians don't believe the solution is legislation. 



I know:). I was just going by typical political stances. I just didn't want to get into the nuances, exceptions, ect...


A better example would have been gay-marriage or drug legalization. Abortion is quite a controversial topic among libertarians with almost a 50/50 split. 



killerzX said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Ultimately, Libertarianism is not acceptable to the American political mainstream, which is why it only ever gains traction on the fringes, though it wins some of its small victories.

I think you're going to be surprised in the near future when there will not only be a large segement of libertarianism in the Republican party, but also the Democratic party. Do remember that until the 1930's, classical liberalism was the overwhelmingly dominant political philosophy in the United States, and it hasn't died as it had in Europe, and Asia (arguably never born in Asia.) 

not going to happen, the party's platform moves further from libertarianism and gets more more statist every election cycle.

i can forsee the the republican party perhaps fracturing, or splitting. we are starting to see that already. We have the establisment republicans that are progressive/ big governments-lite, and then you have the tea party types and the libertarian wings of the party. the latter groups or genuinelly for limited constituional government, the former part of the republican party as different from the democratic party as many people think. the last 4 years there has sort of been a clash within the republican party, of where its member want it to go.

but as for libertarianism gaining ground within the democratic party. not a chance, there's a greater probability of a 3rd party playing a major part in a presidential election than the DNC getting libertarians

The two-party system doesn't allow for splits. Just shifts in paradigms. This election cycle has shown a more libertarian Republican house, and with some work we can have a libertarian Republican senate. After the Bush era, and the failure of Obama's "promises" there has been a shift among the general public toward libertarianism of some extent (at least 1/3rd of the U.S population according to polls.) As for the democratic party, once the republican establishment falls (which it is currently) so will it's twin the the democratic party. You'll see more influence from both left-wing libertarians and with the common interests right-wing libertarians. Overall we'll she a shift toward the right (smaller government) because it's necessary for the left-winged libertarians to reach their goals. 



Both think Obama sucks.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Both think Obama sucks.


The difference is that one thinks he sucks simply because he's a Democract.  The other thinks he sucks because of his issues/reversal on issues.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Viper1 said:
Mr Puggsly said:
Both think Obama sucks.


The difference is that one thinks he sucks simply because he's a Democract.  The other thinks he sucks because of his issues/reversal on issues.

No, both conservatives and libertarians think he sucks for many reasons, not just for being a liberal. Even liberals have become disenchanted with Obama.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Viper1 said:
Mr Puggsly said:
Both think Obama sucks.


The difference is that one thinks he sucks simply because he's a Democract.  The other thinks he sucks because of his issues/reversal on issues.

No, both conservatives and libertarians think he sucks for many reasons, not just for being a liberal. Even liberals have become disenchanted with Obama.

It was a joke about the average Republican.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

sc94597 said:
killerzX said:

not going to happen, the party's platform moves further from libertarianism and gets more more statist every election cycle.

i can forsee the the republican party perhaps fracturing, or splitting. we are starting to see that already. We have the establisment republicans that are progressive/ big governments-lite, and then you have the tea party types and the libertarian wings of the party. the latter groups or genuinelly for limited constituional government, the former part of the republican party as different from the democratic party as many people think. the last 4 years there has sort of been a clash within the republican party, of where its member want it to go.

but as for libertarianism gaining ground within the democratic party. not a chance, there's a greater probability of a 3rd party playing a major part in a presidential election than the DNC getting libertarians

The two-party system doesn't allow for splits. Just shifts in paradigms. This election cycle has shown a more libertarian Republican house, and with some work we can have a libertarian Republican senate. After the Bush era, and the failure of Obama's "promises" there has been a shift among the general public toward libertarianism of some extent (at least 1/3rd of the U.S population according to polls.) As for the democratic party, once the republican establishment falls (which it is currently) so will it's twin the the democratic party. You'll see more influence from both left-wing libertarians and with the common interests right-wing libertarians. Overall we'll she a shift toward the right (smaller government) because it's necessary for the left-winged libertarians to reach their goals. 

I think instead that we're going to have a Populist/Progressive split, similar to the turn or so of the 20th century, where the social conservatives are going to ally with Big Labor, we'll see a split in the African American community, and libertarians will have certain planks prominently positioned on both sides (though both sides will still have stuff libertarians hate, their issues will move up in the pecking order).



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insomniac17 said:
richardhutnik said:
I think he dismissed the anarchist side, because that is an entirely different issue. One could say he dismissed it in a non-constructive manner, and possibly derogatory, but I do see it as a separate issue.

And I would say there are conservative libertarians, with the likes of Ron Paul being pretty close to that.

But even talking about the Libertarian Party, there is still an anarchist movement. Why do you say it is a different issue?

Ron Paul would be an excellent example. Andrew Napolitano would be an example of a constitutionalist, although some believe that he is an anarcho-capitalist.

I was agree to some degree with the original video.  Libertarians believe there is a need for at least SOME government, while anarchists want none.  Because of this, the nature of the debate is different and focus.  A major reason for this, is to try to debate whether or not there is a need for any government gets to be pretty lengthy and has more fundamental issues.  And here, it doesn't relate to whether or not Libertarians and Conservatives are the same thing.  That is why I had been trying to position away.  I would say, it is worth discussing, but please start it in another thread.  I definitely would like to see a Libertarian debate an Anarchist, which would put the Libertarian in the big government role in comparison.