By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - UNITY - Nintendo & Wii U Finish The REVOLUTION

snyps said:
richardhutnik said:
snyps said:
richardhutnik said:
snyps said:


Thank you for being forth coming with these interesting facts.  This link shows Wii U meets the minimum requirements (including ram) to support eso.  Very cool.  I know Bethesda isn't going to port it over, but it's good to know Wii U is capable.  Though I'm curious to know why you don't think it is.

Check their target specs.  The Wii U doesn't fit that at all.  And it isn't just the RAM either, but other things.  The BIG reason is this:

The Wii U doesn't have sufficiently large sales for third-porty to downscale their targeted coding to be able to get it to work on the Wii U.  They just don't want to bother with it at all, because the sales aren't there, and it isn't like coding on the X86.  They way they are targeting stuff, the Wii U isn't in the picture at all.  And that is the reality.  And ALL this cuts against what johnlucas is preaching that somehow, when the dust clears, EVERYONE is going to return to Nintendo, and Sony and Microsoft will be done.  johnlucas in this thread is arguing that ONE company will be left after this generation is over, and that is Nintendo.  Look at the thread.

I will NOT say that Nintendo can't get third-party in the future, and stuff be multiplatform, but it certainly isn't going to be the big open world stuff they have in mind for the PS4 and ONE.  it would be different.

And another thing, look at the harddrive requirements for Elder Scrolls Online.  That alone makes it not practical for the Wii U to do.  For one thing, one of the Wii U's models can't install it, as it is. That model can add additional storage, but Bethesda would then have to increase the amount of testing needed to make sure ESO ran on a wide range of these external storage solutions.  And that is NOT fun.

The short: Poor sales, too different specs = not bothering with the platform.  Add in also the underpowered part for giggles. As it is now, the OUYA stands a better chance of getting third-party stuff thrown on it than the Wii U.  All people need to do is just take their old Android code and tweak it for the OUYA controller.  AND they are doing that



Exactly! It's the cpu architecture and smaller install base that keeps multiplatform pc games from coming to Wii U. Ppl are just having a giggle about the ram but it's not what's stopping the show. It's nice to agree once in a while. But that doesn't go against what johnlucas is saying. Based on sony's & ms' very unsuccessful attempts to make profit in their games division, I believe they will drop out of the console race one day. If they lose profits again this gen it's 'GAME OVER' for them. If & when that happens, big pc guys will either go back to pc, or begin developing on Nintendo, or both. And that of coarse includes the big open world stuff. Gta V, Eso, any modern open world game can be ported to Wii U and run as, or nearly as, intended. Like johnlucas said Nintendo is the groundskeeper. It's their business. They make sure this isn't a race to the bottom. Once sony & ms can't afford the losses anymore (like sega). They will unceremoniously exit the grounds.

In regards to the harddrive requirements. Those aren't necessary as far as my understanding, skyrim pc needed hdd space & yet skyrim ps360 didn't. If you suggest an mmo needs a hdd install for something Im unaware of; I'll entertain the idea for you. Any desktop external hdd with usb2.0 will work on Wii U. I know i just bought 2tb for $90. So if Eso did need a harddrive install, it could be download only from eshop or labeled as requiring space on the package. Not an issue.

Where RAM comes in is when you design a game around the amount of RAM used.  Game designs factor this in.  If you change the baseline amount of RAM, you need to redesign the games.  Third party is coding around the 8GB-OS requirements of RAM on the PS4 and ONE.  They are going open world and planning this.  They would have to fundamentally change what they are doing.  They just don't want to.  They requested 8GB of RAM for numerous reasons.  And if a game is coded to this, then the Wii U version would have to be a rework, which they don't want to do.

You see games like Minecraft, for example on the 360, being smaller than the PC version, with the RAM being a reason.  Civilization 4 and 5 didn't come to the consoles, but Civilization Revelotion did, which was designed for the limitations.  It actually was mapped spec-wise to the Nintendo DS, with the PS3 and 360 versions being just as small, with improved graphics.

RAM DOES matter.  One can choose to design different games with different factors involved.

You can also cross out the OUYA comment, BUT you ARE getting Android games appearing in the OUYA market, because of how simple it is to do.  The ease to port is an important part of this.



I understand why you mention the ouya market. Ease of development is the key issue and not power. Android/iOS just isn't on my radar is all. Little games for a buck each. It adds up but it's not interesting to me.

In regards to ram, again we agree. Except I prefer we say available ram, ie 1gb & 4gb for Wii U & Px1 respectively. But it's only semantics, and we know what eachother mean. There's obviously a lot of reasons why Wii U gets support from Activision, Ubisoft, Warner bros, etc... and not Rockstar, Bethesda, EA, etc. I think we can agree that, in order to have broader 3rd party support, either:

a) Wii U would need a very big install base to warrant time & energy investments from tepid companies.

b) Wii U would need a new manufacturing plant and re-train it's world class devs to use x86 architecture, as well as include 4gb ram for game software.



Obviously, Nintendo isn't going to choose option b. It would cost much more than they can afford and would degrade the quality of in house software. This literally means Nintendo would go broke and depend on 3rd parties to stay alive. Exactly like sony & ms. See why this option puts Nintendo at a disadvantage? They are at a disadvantage either way. But option a gives them profitability and the Nintendo Seal of Quality on their software. If the strategy holds and they make a profit while playstation and xbox have another year of losses, Wii U will get the 3rd parties in the end.

Until Nintendo can have a platform to dominate, and cause development to totally shift, companies calculate here on what to do and vote up or down.  As now, they are voting down.  In a segment I saw, people are saying that boat past, because Nintendo didn't bring third-party in, so they felt left out.  What Nintendo get will be different IP, with a different approach to things, and not the vision third-party had.  Like with the Wii, it would be come back later with a Boomblox, or do stuff like the Vita has, with titles that have the main name, BUT are a spin-off.

The thing now the industry is facing, and Nintendo has warned about this (Iwata spoke on it) is that t he games for the dollar, and freemium are totally changing everything.  Companies are having a serious problem at $60 a pop.  They are now in "go big or go home" and a lot will end up having to go home.

For Nintendo to turn it around, do the following: Predict which game is in Nintendo's pipeline, or rolled out feature, that is new and will end up breaking like 10 million sold and be the next Angry Birds or Minecraft.  Or, what feature is it going to reveal that will make the difference.  Maybe Nintendo shrinks the Wii U down to the size of a tablet alone, combines it with the 2DS, and integrates all their games under one platform, and prices it at $150.  They change the game.  Will it happen?

Otherwise, with you seeing Sony going Vita TV, it looks like the Microconsole is going to be the big deal at this point.



Around the Network
richardhutnik said:

This video on the 2DS brings up some points about Reggie, and how companies can sometimes miss it:



I'm not going to watch that. I opened it and watched 5 seconds of him going "really" 10x. He's a Nintendo hater.. those guys are great for their obsession and jealousy but not clarity of thinking. If you wanna tell me what he said that's cool.



richardhutnik said:
snyps said:



I understand why you mention the ouya market. Ease of development is the key issue and not power. Android/iOS just isn't on my radar is all. Little games for a buck each. It adds up but it's not interesting to me.

In regards to ram, again we agree. Except I prefer we say available ram, ie 1gb & 4gb for Wii U & Px1 respectively. But it's only semantics, and we know what eachother mean. There's obviously a lot of reasons why Wii U gets support from Activision, Ubisoft, Warner bros, etc... and not Rockstar, Bethesda, EA, etc. I think we can agree that, in order to have broader 3rd party support, either:

a) Wii U would need a very big install base to warrant time & energy investments from tepid companies.

b) Wii U would need a new manufacturing plant and re-train it's world class devs to use x86 architecture, as well as include 4gb ram for game software.



Obviously, Nintendo isn't going to choose option b. It would cost much more than they can afford and would degrade the quality of in house software. This literally means Nintendo would go broke and depend on 3rd parties to stay alive. Exactly like sony & ms. See why this option puts Nintendo at a disadvantage? They are at a disadvantage either way. But option a gives them profitability and the Nintendo Seal of Quality on their software. If the strategy holds and they make a profit while playstation and xbox have another year of losses, Wii U will get the 3rd parties in the end.

Until Nintendo can have a platform to dominate, and cause development to totally shift, companies calculate here on what to do and vote up or down.  As now, they are voting down.  In a segment I saw, people are saying that boat past, because Nintendo didn't bring third-party in, so they felt left out.  What Nintendo get will be different IP, with a different approach to things, and not the vision third-party had.  Like with the Wii, it would be come back later with a Boomblox, or do stuff like the Vita has, with titles that have the main name, BUT are a spin-off.

The thing now the industry is facing, and Nintendo has warned about this (Iwata spoke on it) is that t he games for the dollar, and freemium are totally changing everything.  Companies are having a serious problem at $60 a pop.  They are now in "go big or go home" and a lot will end up having to go home.

For Nintendo to turn it around, do the following: Predict which game is in Nintendo's pipeline, or rolled out feature, that is new and will end up breaking like 10 million sold and be the next Angry Birds or Minecraft.  Or, what feature is it going to reveal that will make the difference.  Maybe Nintendo shrinks the Wii U down to the size of a tablet alone, combines it with the 2DS, and integrates all their games under one platform, and prices it at $150.  They change the game.  Will it happen?

Otherwise, with you seeing Sony going Vita TV, it looks like the Microconsole is going to be the big deal at this point.



This conversation turned out better than I expected. Yes, the ship sailed for some devs but they will return to port when their destination goes under like the lost city of atlantis. Nintendo will keep themselves afloat all on their own as they've been doing for many years. Not as survivors but as King of Red Lions, master of the open sea. You're wrong about vita/wii quality bloombox leftover subgames on Wii U. Wii U is powerful. You will not notice a humongous difference between the three nextgen consoles graphically or otherwise.

Iwata is staying away from the go big or go broke mentality. Other companies are in an arms race where few make it out. Nintendo is staying within budget on every game. They keep their ip at a premium too. No matter how old their games they still fetch top dollar on ebay. But back to the point. Nintendo is heeding their own warnings. That's why games are coming out for $50 brand new on Wii U. And Nintendo is transitioning to digital sales more successfully than the others. Because they did it slyly. Zelda HD comes out digitaly 2 weeks ahead of packaged copies. Also Wii U & 3DS owners can choose their own storage which gives power to the customer. If i want 2000gb I got it, cheap & easy! Handhelds is same story, cheap and easy! Better than sony's & ms' 500gb limit you are forced to into. And psv's expensive storage monopoly is what scares most gamers. Nintendo's digital market is enticing and will generate the most income.

Wii U will stay Wii U and 3DS will stay 3DS (with it's lil brother 2DS). So many fun games to come out this holiday and beyond. There's no reason for Nintendo to do anything except print money and make great games. Vtv is a great little idea and i Wish the best for that little microconsole. Sony did a good job modeling the vita provisioning profile after the ipod's. Sony even gave away free developer registration until sept, which I got in on. I'll wait to see if compelling software gets made for it. But micro consoles and smart devices don't interest me much.



Gamerace said:


Your ignoring the inconvenient facts John.

3DS sales are still down.

WiiU has not attracted an audience.  Period.  At least you're not hiding behind the lack of games (which do factor in but not in January when WiiU had lots of fresh releases and still sales dropped off a cliff).   

Ebb & Flow, Gamerace. Ebb & Flow.
2013 3DS sales will outdo 2012 3DS sales. It's that simple.
Watch this holiday season to see what I say come true.
2011 was too early for the 3DS & the price didn't help.
2012 was right on time for the 3DS & with the better price it exploded.
2013 builds upon 2012 as the library gets more & more entrenched.
Remember, in many retailers' game cases, 3DS games are still sharing about equal space with DS games (which naturally can play on 3DS).
Even as late as this summer, the Wal-Mart in my area had Midnight Blue DSi XL's in the case with 3DS's & 3DS XL's.
2014 will build upon 2013 since by that time the DS games should be a minority compared to the 3DS games on the shelf.
The system has not peaked by far. Remember how the DS kept climbing year after year?

Right now is the natural ebb & flow of sales per month.
One month does a little better than its previous year's counterpart, another month does a little worse than its previous year's counterpart.
But expect the Flow of this holiday season to counteract the Ebbs.
You guys are getting carried away with this '3DS is down' nonsense.
If these 'down' stats are in place come December, THEN we can talk.

This holiday season will show the beginning of Wii U's surge.
Remember, some people don't buy systems until the holidays.
They save their money all year long, they pay on layaway.
XBox One & PlayStation 4 have the hype for now but I expect STRONG sales for Wii U this Christmas/Kwanzaa/Hanukkah/Ramadan/Festivus.

Gamerace said:

Games alone cannot save a poor console design.   Didn't save the Virtual boy, didn't save the GC.  Both were selling better than WiiU at the moment.  So Nintendo has NO history of recessitating a console from this kind of dis-interest.   3DS was selling way better, even at it's worse, than WiiU and Vita was an even bigger disaster - more disconnected from the consumer's interests and more expensive - so 3DS had no competition (other than mobile).  WiiU will have LOTS of serious competition at very aggresive price points.  Both above it's price point with PS4 being only $100 more for a more powerful system with a lot more memory and games, and below with $99+ Android/iOS consoles.


Poor console design? Wii U IS NOT—I repeat—IS NOT the Virtual Boy. Virtual Boy had REAL identifiable problems that no one could deny.
Wii U is paying the penance for Wii's premature abortion. Nintendo stopped Wii in its prime & there's a spiritual backlash from it.
But Wii U's time in purgatory will be complete by the holidays. Like Wii did, it'll be on its Rise to Heaven.

NO history??? We got recent history. The 3DS itself.
Maybe the degree that Wii U is currently failing is greater but Nintendo turned the 3DS around ENTIRELY.
I have no doubt they'll do the same for the Wii U.
I trust Satoru Iwata. This man got SO MUCH of my respect & many others when in an age where CEOs escape with golden parachutes, he HALVES HIS PAY when his product didn't perform to expectations.
The BIG man took the hit. He didn't fire any low level employees. HE took the blame. The bigwigs took the blame.
As a matter of fact, as far as I know Nintendo NEVER drops their employees.
I think that is one of the reasons why they have remained so successful.
They value their people.

We'll never really know what happened with Gunpei Yokoi & Nintendo in the fallout of the Virtual Boy.
But based on the rest of Nintendo's track record I'll rule out the Yakuza-style hit theory & say that Yokoi truly was embarrassed & resigned out of shame.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I believe until given facts otherwise.

Iwata is sincere & Hiroshi Yamauchi couldn't have picked a better successor to govern Nintendo into the future.
Unlike Iwata, Yamauchi seemed to be a scary man who didn't make many personal appearances.
But he had a knack for seeing a good product & he knew talent when he saw it.
He knew to let the artists have the floor in his company. The way he structured the company created the atmosphere Iwata was immersed in at HAL Laboratory, the Nintendo associate.
Yamauchi's vision for Nintendo guides the company to this day & Iwata respects this vision.
He respects the braintrust, he was a part of that braintrust.
He values that braintrust & the people who make it up.
That's why he doesn't seem phony like most of these execs out here hawking products.

He'll right this ship & get Nintendo all the way back on the tracks. They're already halfway on now. Just gotta get the other half.
Having that stiff competition will make the return to form even MORE inspiring. BRING IT ON!!

Gamerace said:

I'm not disagreeing about the instability of either the 8th gen console market or mobile market.  But in no way is WiiU in a superior, or even as good, position.  If anything is going to benefit from PS4/XB1 failure it'll be PC and mobile.   The PC market has survived longer than Nintendo and it's not going anywhere.  Not when it's enjoying it's best sales in twenty years and still growing. 

Yes, the mobile market is going through a boom cycle to be followed by bust.  So did the console market and PC games when they started.  They are still around (even if very few of the original game developers are) and so will mobile be as well.


PC hasn't stopped consoles in 30 years & nothing's gonna change now.
I said before that PC will always be around due its hobbyist roots & modular nature of the platform & games that run on it.
It will ALWAYS be that wide-open field for people to test ideas without worry of marketability.
But as a business that ship has sailed long ago which is why most PC developers have switched to console part-time or full-time.
Only Maxis & Blizzard & maybe Valve have any true power in that space anymore. Others get a few crumbs here & there at best.
DLC is holding those guys together & nothing more.

You know I can't WAIT until the 3rd parties try to run to the mobile market or the PC market.
Electronic Arts, EA, STARTED as a PC developer. Madden was a PC game originally. Why aren't you there now?
I WANT to see them run & get caught up in the mobile crash.
I WANT to see them try to eke out of a living on the PC.
They need a serious humbling right now. LET 'em run!
If enough survive the trip, they'll run back & take shelter in Nintendo's house. You know, get in out of the rain. That storm.

Yep the console market crashed & you know who kept it from crashing again?
That little playing card company from Kyoto which makes the Pokeymans & Plumber Guys.
PC has NEVER fully returned to what it was since Nintendo came upon the scene with the NES.
And neither will the smartphone/tablet gang after their crash.
Anybody that DOES survive will end up emulating more or less the one who ensures stablity in this unstable business.
Yep, the ones who survive the mobile crash will probably end up doing some things Nintendo does.
Mobile Seal of Quality anyone?

Gamerace said:

I'm not even hating on Nintendo.  I believing in Nintendo.  I AM predicting they'll will the 8th gen.   Nintendo has the mass appeal (potential) that Sony/MS cant touch.  But WiiU does not.  It's not the ship that's going to get them there.  It's another Virtual Boy/GC.  It's a backward step away from what the Wii started.   

And you have yet to say a single thing to show otherwise other than Nintendo's history but their history is not favourable to consoles selling even close to WiiU's levels.  It's not on your side.   Yes I get what Nintendo was TRYING to do.  I get that they understand the market better and are thinking longer term but they are certainly not immune to mistakes (remember Wii Music?) but they do tend to recover from them nicely.


We have a fundamental disagreement on Wii U. I believe it WILL be the ship that gets them there.
And don't put down the Gamecube. Gamecube had its revenge through Wii & will continue to have its last laughs through Wii U.
I always called Gamecube 'Imperfect Cell' from Dragon Ball Z. Almost right but missing those few key components, that one last Android to become Perfect.
Gamecube went for small form factor, low power consumption, pound-for-pound power, accessibility in controls, family friendly nature (this is a constant for Nintendo consoles actually).
But the boxy cube was not quite right compared to Wii's 3 DVDs high design.
Gamecube's controller tried its best to make the evolution of the NES standard more accessible with more extreme button differentiation but Wii got the accessibility right with the Wiimote/Nunchuk combo.
They fine-tuned the family-first tenet present in all their consoles by naming the product Wii & showing that it was for more than the kiddies.
It was for the kiddies, adults, AND seniors.
They got the low power consumption right on & the pound-for-pound power right on.

Wii was Perfect Cell & now Wii U is Super Perfect Cell.
Wii blew itself up & became stronger as a result.
And there's no Gohan to battle him back either.

No company is immune from mistakes. Including my beloved Nintendo.
I STILL say Nintendo should have incorporated WiiConnect24 into their Nintendo Network instead of just ending the service altogether like that.
The remaining Wiis on the shelves could talk with the Wii U's through Wii mode & connect.
It's a missed opportunity & I still think it was a waste to just cut the service off so soon like this.

Well if you don't say Nintendo's history points to a turnaround, then I'll say they'll MAKE history.
Though I say 3DS already proved this point, we'll just say there's a first time for everything (but actually this'll be the second ).

I liked Wii Music actually. They probably should have waited until after the Wii Motion Plus was out to release it so people wouldn't complain about the controls.
I bet other companies would kill to have 3 million+ sales "failures".
Wii Music will looked back on fondly in my opinion. I've heard of talented people transforming Wii Music's pre-selected tunes into a whole new sounding song.
Read this article in its 3-page entirety. Nah I'll just post all 3 pages up for you.
The brilliance of Wii Music - Part 1

The brilliance of Wii Music - Part 2: evidence of awesomeness
The brillaince of Wii Music - Part 3: The Myths

The only element missing was a Mario Paint-style sheet music maker to draw from.
THAT was the game's biggest mistake.

I would love to see an improved version on Wii U actually.
Would be yet another feather in Wii U's by-then feather-filled cap.
John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

snyps said:

This conversation turned out better than I expected. Yes, the ship sailed for some devs but they will return to port when their destination goes under like the lost city of atlantis. Nintendo will keep themselves afloat all on their own as they've been doing for many years. Not as survivors but as King of Red Lions, master of the open sea. You're wrong about vita/wii quality bloombox leftover subgames on Wii U. Wii U is powerful. You will not notice a humongous difference between the three nextgen consoles graphically or otherwise.

Iwata is staying away from the go big or go broke mentality. Other companies are in an arms race where few make it out. Nintendo is staying within budget on every game. They keep their ip at a premium too. No matter how old their games they still fetch top dollar on ebay. But back to the point. Nintendo is heeding their own warnings. That's why games are coming out for $50 brand new on Wii U. And Nintendo is transitioning to digital sales more successfully than the others. Because they did it slyly. Zelda HD comes out digitaly 2 weeks ahead of packaged copies. Also Wii U & 3DS owners can choose their own storage which gives power to the customer. If i want 2000gb I got it, cheap & easy! Handhelds is same story, cheap and easy! Better than sony's & ms' 500gb limit you are forced to into. And psv's expensive storage monopoly is what scares most gamers. Nintendo's digital market is enticing and will generate the most income.

Wii U will stay Wii U and 3DS will stay 3DS (with it's lil brother 2DS). So many fun games to come out this holiday and beyond. There's no reason for Nintendo to do anything except print money and make great games. Vtv is a great little idea and i Wish the best for that little microconsole. Sony did a good job modeling the vita provisioning profile after the ipod's. Sony even gave away free developer registration until sept, which I got in on. I'll wait to see if compelling software gets made for it. But micro consoles and smart devices don't interest me much.

My interest isn't in being disagreeable and winning some argument, getting people to bow to me, be crush and admit they are wrong.  I do want to have the right understanding and can argue from what I know, and can also end up adjusting accordingly as needed.  Heck, I don't even have a platform I would argue for.  With Microsoft going from ONE to 180, I am not sure what to make of them.  $400 for a new PS4 isn't of interest to me much either.  $300 for the Wii U, isn't really on my radar, with the second screen growing LESS of interest to me after I tried (this is not like the Wii's motion controls).  $500 is a NO WAY with me with Microsoft, and I have no current gen stuff outside of a 3DS, if you consider that current gen.  It is hardly played now actually, but is there.  I find the xl version I have not that comfortable for prolonged use, and found I was doing the downloadable games more of interest, like firing up Metroid.

The issue I have here with johnlucas is the idea of Nintendo dominanting.  This isn't surviving, but dominanting.  I do see that Nintendo IP will remain about, but it could be in a much smaller market, with an off chance they get reduced to the portable market.  Idea now should be on surviving.  Nintendo has a good shot at that, but these are very dangerous times, so I am not even sure.  I would argue less with Nintendo surviving though than dominanting.

The big concern is whether or not Nintendo's approach is suitable for being viable.  The entire industry could "go big or go home" and end up gobbling up sales, leaving Nintendo in the dust.  They then end up going under, as new competitors enter.  Nintendo survives, but isn't that relevant.  Nintendo is in the middle now, actually, between the Microconsoles and the upper end.  It isn't a good place to be.  Question remains about if and when the crash happens how unscarred they they will be.  Things could get reduced to the even more churny area of Indie games, with studios rising and falling in a hurry, and 15 minutes of fame.  People at this point stop making videogames a core part of their life, but have it on the margins.

Need to stay tuned here about this.



Around the Network

Okay I'm just popping my thoughts in real quick after skimming through the page. 

 

3DS is down 20% from the DS sales by this time in the year, the only difference is that the DS launched several months earlier, and by now had Diamond and Pearl, it's Pokemon games. You know, the biggest Handheld seller? Which even with that amount of loss, it's incredibly small considering the boom of the mobile games industry. People are quick to say that people are abandoning handheld gaming and the casual market is gone. Phones aren't the gaming industry! People still use dedicated gaming devices, as well as playing Angry birds in the toilet. They are different calibers of gaming and you know what, sometimes I play Fruit Ninja in the can, and other times I knock out a race in Mario Kart 7. 

 

Sure Apple makes more money than Nintendo and Sony combined, but it's a different and broader market.People playing games on dedicated devices won't stop doing so because they can also play Angry Birds free on their phone. It's two completely different experiences, which is Sony's major issue with the Vita but I'll get to that in a second. Mobile markets just add another tier to gaming. Bringing more people into our completely separate industry, not pulling them out. Phones are seen in North America as a basic human right, and every house has access to them, eventually it will be the same thing for Cellular phones. Phones which have games, people may play one and find they enjoy video games and may go out and buy something like a dedicated handheld or a console. 7 Billion people on earth with only 250 million console sales, there's plenty of room to get bigger, much less room to get smaller. 

 

Now let's assume every "casual gamer" that came in with the Wii's boom and even PS2's cheap DVD, and count the number of people suddenly up and left. Looking at the sales numbers of the 6th generation, that's 160 Million units sold. Divide by 3 and there's enough profits to go around for everyone. Obviously though, that's not the case.  People continue to garner interest. about 200 Million units sold. As you can see interest has steadily grown over the years, and I can see it growing even faster, as games start spreading to more corners of the world. Hell, look at the 3DS, hasn't hit 2 years and it's over 30 Million units sold without it's major games released. How is that showing signs of the industry faltering?

 

As for the Wii/U. I honestly don't believe that the soccer moms that bought the Wii now have iPads and will not get the Wii U. There's no basis for this whatsoever, it's just assumed because that market has grown fast, without mention that it's a completely different market. Phones, something that everyone has as a basic need while video games are a luxury, but through phones and free shovelware games, games spread and more people are exposed to it and it's becoming more of an accepted hobby and even now a viable career. Hell the fact that 3DS is keeping up with the DS is incredible proof of this. The differences in power are somewhat negligible and the "wow" factor of 2 screens no longer applies, yet it's still going just as strong. Btw, I won't go into power right now, I'll do so with more basis in the weekend, but I will say this. The PS4/XBO are extremely inefficient with no room for improvement, Wii U is very much so and should at the minimum be at the same pace as the PS4, in a years time. More on that in a couple of days. 

 

Speaking of Sony and MS, why don't we talk about them?

 

Microsoft

First off; Microsoft. More specifically Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer, promoted to President in 2000, launchedthe Xbox in 2001. Throughout the just over a decade he's been in office, he's made it clear, he wants Microsoft to take the living room and expand beyond business software. A venture that has lost Microsoft, as of last year, over 450 Billion dollars. Including major losses in the Xbox brand. As you may know, ValueAct, an investor with a 0,8% stake in MS, just over 2 Billion dollars, recently called for 3 things to happen. Steve Ballmer to be fired, a chair on the Board of Directors, and the Xbox brand to be sold off. The Xbox brand over the years has put them under over 6 Billion dollars, as of last year. Last year MS reported losses of 900 Million dollars. Approximately 170 Million due to Xbox. Most of their income came in part of Xbox LIVE. While 360 eventually came to be profitable, it's still not enough and their investment is nowhere near paid off. But that's the past, and we are transitioning into the future. 

Xbox One. This beast. So I'll skip the controversy behind it on this one and focus on the investment it has had known so far. 1 Billion on the servers. 1 Billion on opening up game studios. 500 Million on the NFL deal, 100 Million on R&D for the controller, and what we can only assume to be another 300-500 Million on exclusive deals with Activision, EA, and apparently there's even something with Ubisoft and the Division. Roughly 3 Billion or so on what we know. Now the most important things are what we don't know. Kinect and the actual box itself. Now this next part is purely speculation; The controller was 100 Million, what could the box cost? 500 Million? 700 Million? That sound right? The year they launched the 360 they had a loss of 2 Billion. Of course back then they had custom hardware, not it's off the shelf so it's presumably cheaper. Let's go off of Nintendo's losses last year, 500 Million. A nice safe round number. Okay so 3.5 Millon. But now here's the big money spender. Kinect. 

Kinect, an intriguing device which under the wrong hands can be pretty scary. But tinfoil conspiracy aside, let's talk about the tech. Kinect 2.0 is said to use the tracking technology in jets. The original Kinect prototype cost them 30,000 just to manufacture the unit itself, then they cut some stuff out and it ended up at about 120 dollars to manufacture. Not this one with all it's added features, which reportedly costs as much to manufacture as the Xbox One box itself. Technology to trace your eyeballs and sense your heartbeat through that, and know who you are at first glance. Couldn't have been cheap. 1 Billion? 2 Billion? Has to be a lot with them pushing it so hard. Even being generous it can end up at 5 Billion more dollars pre-launch. How about manufacturing costs? If reports are true and the Kinect costs as much as the box. how much can the box cost? For this I'll quickly look at a piece of tech very similar to it in parts used. PS4. PS4 is extremely similar using almost identical parts. With the exception of more expensive RAM. Sony has reported they don't expect to take as big as a loss than they did with the PS3, but with that being a 200-300 loss it's expected. People have taken the sum of the known parts and puts it in the ballpark of 480. Assuming XBO is in that ballpark, maybe 420, or even 400. If the Kinect costs as much to manufacture, that brings the costs to about 800 per box. Shipping out 6 Million units? Being generous (again), and putting it at 700 per box, that's an extra 4 Billion+ investment in the brand. Bringing us to a grand total of 15 Billion dollar investment on the brand (I won't go over these number for everyone, there's a reason for this). "But it's MS, they can take the loss and wait out the profits", but will they? Maybe with Ballmer involved.

Only thing is, ValueAct has gotten it's wishes come true. CEO has a chair on the board, and Ballmer has announced his retirement, which was forced upon him. ValueAct and supporting investors are calling for change at the company and for them to go back to the only profitable business for them, business software. What is to become of Xbox then? Will the new MS take these losses, and continue to get hit by them for even another year, just waiting for the returns? Well that is yet to be seen, but it's extremely doubtful. Now selling Xbox, if that were to happen it'd be to some major congolomorate company, but who? Samsung? MS is going to want some of their money back on that, a significant amount really, and with Xbox's brand power fading, who will put up the money? Apple or Google? I doubt it. The most likely course of action is filing Microsoft Game Studios as bankrupt (to cleanly cancel contracts), and sell off individual assets. Publishing rights, IPs, studios, the works. Will that happen? Well let's give it a few months for those corporate suits to do what they do best. Meanwhile how about the Xbox One doing great and bringing back the money? Well after the controversy, that's a good 2-4 Million potential sales lost to Sony. That's nothing in the long run, but in the short run, it's the people that buy a console day one and spread the word to buy it. They haven't done all wrong though, they are doing well by Europe by havign the FIFA preorder deal, which is sure to kickstart the system, as well as Forza 5 in EU. They also have a decent lineup of games with a potential major hit in Q1, and nothing in the forseeable future, but Titanfall (as much as I hate the fact that it is), looks like a system seller and even that first year of exclusivity will help keep it alive through the inevitable game drought. At that point it's too far ahead to predict anything. Who knows if it will even last that long, or it may succeed and be a big hit. Time will tell.

 

Sony
Now how about Sony? Here's where it gets interesting. 

Not only have they lost every cent they've made on the PS1/PS2 era, they've fallen greatly as a company....

Okay, I got sidetracked looking for links and I found http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/09/08/the-ten-year-decline-of-sony/this. This is all that you need to read in terms of their current finance situation. 

 

In terms of the PS4, I'll try to be quick. Sony (even before reading that), needs nothing more than a miracle to have the PS4 be a success, and as luck would have it, they got that miracle, through MS' slip-ups, and they went through and went all out to expose that slip up and gain the most out of it, not out of vanity or some sort of thing against their practices, but because they needed them to slip-up, and they needed to bring it home. Now the PS4 will make 2 Million hype sales, sure. But hype/1st month sales mean nothing. What matters is keeping that up through software, which is something they don't have, a killer app. inFAMOUS is sure to bring in numbers, but not enough. Their launch;  I predict 2-2.5 Million units sold by January. Now after that, we have nothing until February, and then a drought. The problem is what comes in February is not a killer app, and unlike Nintendo, they don't have a top selling software product to keep them afloat. In Q1 Nintendo has Mario Kart, Microsoft has Titanfall, and Sony has inFAMOUS. inFAMOUS, while a staple game which sells well, it isn't a hardware seller, neither is Killzone or new IPs. Titanfall is shaping up to be, and we know Mario Kart is. Unlike the PS1, PS2, and PS3, they don't have a killer feature to separate it from the rest. No Bluray, CDs, or DVDs. As such it needed software, which wasn't ready for launch. 

Now that's not the PS4's biggest issue, maybe on it's own merit in a perfect world [For SONY] it could outsell the gimicky less powerful Wii U and the more expensive Xbox One, but it isn't one, and it's not on its own in the market. The biggest issue for the PS4, is the PS3. If I'm one of 70 Million + consumers that has a PS3, that's not going to be one of the initial 2 Million buyers. Why should I upgrade? It's 400 for a box that has minimal return on graphics, features, and is yet to have a killer app. Most games are available on PS3 as well and hell the PS3 is still getting exclusives. They have to convince 70 Million people to put down 400 dollars on a system that doesn't give much of a different experience and on top of that, you have to convince people to buy these boxes with 60 dollar games over the a PS3 you can get for 100 dollars or 200 in stores and has an entire library of games you can't even get new anymore, which means they don't get the profit for software sales on what many people will see as a much more viable platform (Cheaper, still getting games, and more games). A major issue is that the at the moment all Sony platforms are third party centric going into the next year, something that is not a good thing. Few exclusives in the first 6-8 month lineup, and most of those exclusives will be on both or all three of their platforms. 

Speaking of 3 platforms, let's talk about the VITA. Ooh boy, this thing. I keep saying I'll keep it short and never do huh? Well here goes another attempt at that. The Playstation VITA. 2 years in and still a complete bust. You know, I can keep this short as there isn't even much to say. 3DS is dominating and VITA isn't, and I have an idea why. They are going with the shiny gloss and 'OLED' screen and 'better hardware'. Meanwhile they left out the games. The VITA relies solely on third party ports and very few first party titles, and the ones that do come in are more console ports. That's the biggest problem with the VITA imo, they are going for a console gaming experience on the go, but that's not what people want from a handheld. When I pick up my 3DS it's a different experience in games from playing Console games. You could say that's due in part by the whole DS side of things, then let's take it back a bit. Pokemon Stadium for the N64 and Pokemon Yellow. (I may be completely off with my timing here). When you play a console pokemon game like Stadium or GX it's a completely different experience from that of the portable version. It almost feels like they designed it like that for a purpose. Mario Land feels different from Mario World, and not just because of hardware constraints. Super Mario 3D Land felt like a handheld game built for the system. When I play Mario Kart 7 and Wii, it's a different game and you can tell. SONY is trying hard to get that Console gaming experience on the go, but that experience isn't for the go, it's meant for the home. A handheld is supposed to bring you a different gaming experience than the home experience, and the PSP did that, as with the DS/3DS is doing now. VITA is far from that. 

Now SONY's latest blunder/potentially biggest. Well, it goes both ways. That conference and Gamescom showed me many things. First off, nothing has changed, just more and more ports into the VITA's third year, and worrying that many ports on PS4 as well, but more on that in a second. VITA is showing no changes for the future, well one. Sony's apparent abandonment of the system, with Killzone bombing and news that Gran Turismo won't be on the system, because it's 'too hard' for them? The VITA is now left with Indies doing all the work for them. The new VITA Slim is more proof of that. All they are doing with that one is reducing their investment ont the platform. With a plastic, cheaper plastic over the higher quality built of the previous iteration and most notably the removal of the OLED screen and leaving it with an LCD. This is just cutting their costs, not further supporting the system, Same price, lesser quality. Clear purpose is to reduce the loss on the system. 

And here it comes, the VITA TV! This thing was a HUGE mistake but at the same time a saving grace. Let me explain. Firstly, the way it can help them. With the VITA TV being basically a home VITA model at a budget price of 100-150 depending on whether or not you own a controller, great deal of good it will do for people on the fence. There's two problems though, well this first is likely the plan. Through this they are leaving the Handheld Market. They reduce investment, and book it the hell out of there with a home model to help increase profits on the platform and saving face rather than just abandoning it completely. So now, Nintendo jumps back up to 90-95% marketshare in the handheld space (I don't count phones a part of that). Meanwhile they have a selling platform in the VITA TV which will likely sell more than the VITA had potential to with RemotePlay. All fine and dandy until something happens. With the VITA TV being a portstation at 150 it has the potential of biting into the PS4's marketshare since people can play Playstation games on that rather than spend 400 on a new system. Graphics don't matter anymore and the biggest thing holding the Wii back was simply the 480p resolution. VITA has acceptable resolutoin that I believe will upscale to 720 on VITA TV.

 

As such, there's several million people that can now spend 150 on a SONY hardware over 400, and people that care more about their games or graphics can get a PS3 for 200. So how are they going to convince people not to do that and instead buy a PS4? There's no backwards compatibility so I'd much rather buy a PS3, PS4 has less games and won't be getting too many in it's first year that won't be on other systems, namely PS3. Sony got their first miracle to win over Black Friday, maybe, but what then? They aren't showing potential for moving forward and they really need to. 

 

 

Nintendo
Now Nintendo on the other hand is in a sweet position. Despite what you may be led to believe, the market has been kind to the Wii U, given the drought and ports it's had. In the time it was released, the first few months, it his 3 Million sales, on mostly NSMBU alone, with little hype and much confusion surrounding it. Hate it or love it, the Wii U Gamepad brings a lot more to the table than it's given pubic credit for. Wii U has a unique aspect that actually improves gameplay and adds features not available on any of the other platforms, while doing anything the other platforms do. There's more reason for a 360/PS3 owner to get a Wii U than a PS4/XBO with unique gameplay, while still being able to play the original way, and many different supported control schemes whilst maintaining a ton of exclusive first party games. We have two games a month from here to January, from there we have a major hitter, Mario Kart. Before then it's got a 3D Mario, Sonic, Zelda, DKC, amd  Wii Fit, Wii Party all games which have been proven system sellers, as well as other supporting previously released games such as NSMBU, Game & Wario, Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Zombi U, Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101, and LEGO City Undercover. On top of that, despite what everyone says, it's got tons more third party support already than Nintendo's had in 2 decades. More third party support by the way of EA incoming once the WIi U sells, which it's primed to do the most of this holiday and going into next year. 

Now it's true, the Wii U's power isn't an issue, and honestly it has more potential than the PS4/XBO without being a mess like the Cell processor but more on that on the weekend, it's the lack of demand to give an investment, and third parties didn't give owners a case to buy their ports, which gave them reasons to not develop for the system. Here's the thing, I doubt EA is stupid, they just happen to be money sucking leeches. As such they want to make a profit, and I can't see Nintendo doing 12 Million sales by March with the PS4 at around 2-3 million while XBO is at around the same, and EA not putting their games on the shelves next to Smash Bros. Where EA goes, the rest will follow. It's a shame they have this power, but they have it and as such we move on. Now don't try to counteract with Bethesda's shit talk. Bethesda, which has made 2 games for Nintendo systems, Home Alone, and ****ing Where's Waldo! Their word is irrelevant and I easily see them on the Nintendo stage in 2014/15 at e3 showing off their latest bugfest to release on Wii U with exclusive content. Quote me on that one, I want this to be remembered. 

Sony's biggest mistake was recent, giving Japan to Nintendo. With the PS4 not launching until the end of February, that gives Nintendo an extra 4 months to release their games and becoming a more established force in Japan. Tretton has already said their focus is on the west and after that conference it is clear to me they are ready to let Japan go. Nintendo is uncontested in Japan for 4 months while all their major games are released and Mario Kart will be out before the PS4 launches, potentially Bayonetta as well. Meanwhile, all of Japan's PS4 games are either ports, or cross platform, which means they don't have a reason to buy a PS4, they can just get the games. Nintendo is giving continuous support to the Wii U going into 2014 and even potentially reaching 2015, with more games to be announced this year, and of course the next. MS has no business there. Now in other regions, more importantly NA, the chips can very well fall in the Wii U's favor. The million preorders are only 1 million units with likely another million on top of that, no further support for months. The Wii U has a major price advantage which includes a full retail title, and you can bet your ass that they will have a SM3DW bundle and a Wii Fit U Bundle. Sure, Black Friday will easily go to Sony but how will December go? PS3 has more titles and most the PS4 titles. Wii U has all killer apps incoming, to ensure an extremely profitable holiday for Nintendo. I am predicting roughly 1.5-2 Million a month from October-January, jump 3 million in the month of MK8. If they can keep up the pace of game releases into next year, I can't see the Sony seriously competing after the initial 2-3 Million sales. They don't have the software available to back it up.

Now MS is actually in a better position, as much as I'd hate to say it. NFL deal will look really nice in Q1, having that Fantasy Football stuff and ESPN around Superbowl time. That partnered with Titanfall will do them some good, but not enough good with a single game to go on. On the brigter side, their software lineup at launch is much more promising than Sony's. So while the PS4 is going to do good with those won over by e3 and shunned by MS, they will make it up through the software and FPS deals which actually do matter to some people, although until Titanfall it will be considerably less overall. 


Through Nintendo sales we will get EA, that's a given, but we will also get those which have been quiet and waiting for it to be a viable platform, such as Square Enix which is no doubt to bring their two games to the platform, and Konami, which will bring it. Namco and CAPCOM will further support the system. Id and Gear softworks are different stories as they've been vocal against the system, but when it's a viable business move, you'll them praising it. I think the biggest third party game, which likely releases just early enough to not get a Wii U port, and just late enough that it could, by a company that is supporting the system, could be a major influence in what the Wii U becomes, Destiny by Activision. It's rumored to drop in July, just after e3. Prime time where it may or may not be ported to the system published by an active supporter of the Wii U which has gone out and even defended it from the remarks of Bethesda. Let's be honest, the only reason EA isn't supporting the system now is that they are upset about Origin not being the store on the Wii U, but money will bring them back. 

As for Indies, well Nintendo's been doing well by them for a while now, they just having been shouting it out into the wind like Sony has. They partnered up with Unity and are giving away free Unity 4 licenses as well as giving loaner devkits which can be returned or bought after use which is rumored to cost around the 1500-2000 ballpark. Devs have full access to the entire system and all the gamepad features through the custom Unity tools. 

 

 

Nintendo is primed for success, Sony and MS are primed to leave the market within 2 and 1 years respectively. They've got heavy competition with themselves. while still taking losses on their new systems. The gamepad will go further than the Wii ever could. There's also one final thing to note. Well let me mention something, Casual market isn't gone. 100 Million users didn't just up and buy new phones and won't touch another console again, that is a silly notion and when the Wii U has stuff that gets people talking, which I imagine will end up being it's next pack in game, Wii Party U, it will bring those people to the console, and then some. People seem to forget Nintendo has a larger fanbase with timeless IPs. What Is a niche Nintendo game, would be a high selling staple game for other companies. Their quality hasn't faltered and their namesake is as strong as ever. I predict 320 Million sales this generation, with Nintendo having around 80% Marketshare overall. It'd be more if the competition wasn't primed to crash. 


Interesting links:

http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/The+Bowels+of+Trogdor/sony-is-flirting-with-death-and-death-is-showing-interest-261402.phtml

http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/09/08/the-ten-year-decline-of-sony/


They are no longer the companies they were back when they joined the console market, they've exceedingly lost money at it. Hell, the Gamecube made more profit for Nintendo than the PS2 did for Sony, and that had a 130 Million unit lead on it. They act like they are ahead because they need to, if they show signs of weakness they are boned. 

MS has gone down from 660 Billion net worth to 212 Billion since 2000. 
Sony has gone down from 100 Billion to 11 Billion in the same time, with 135 Billion in liabilities (read the second link), more than Google, EA, MS, and Apple combined.  

Nintendo has steadily profited over 30 years and now has a value of about 16/17 Billion now with 11 Billion in the bank and rising while the others continuously drop.  

Iwata says 1 Billion profit? Okay, I can see that. Now life time, sales for these games releasing, based on sales of previous iterations combined, well let's just say it's a lot of profit from software sales on Wii U. Any numbers I put out would be pure speculation and I'd rather not have that.

 

 

So yeah, I completely believe in this. The Wii U is a perfectly rounded system with everything you could possibly want, and on top of that a completely new way to play all of your games, plus suport for Wiimote and Pro controller at the cheapest price point with the best and most games and the best way to play multiplats. It's going to be hard for Nintendo not to dominate the competition, for as long as there is some. This is going to be like the NES days, Nintendo's return to power saving the industry from once again crashing, putting publishers in line. Except with even higher quality games. I don't know if you've been paying attention but all the games released are top SNES+ quality. Hell there may become a new standard known as Wii U quality games. 



So much for quick thoughts, I apologize for the lack of structure and I'll get back with the power thing, in which I'll focus on explaining why the Wii U has more power and potential than the 'Wonder' Twins, in a couple of days. 



johnlucas said:
Gamerace said:


Your ignoring the inconvenient facts John.

3DS sales are still down.

WiiU has not attracted an audience.  Period.  At least you're not hiding behind the lack of games (which do factor in but not in January when WiiU had lots of fresh releases and still sales dropped off a cliff).   

Ebb & Flow, Gamerace. Ebb & Flow.
2013 3DS sales will outdo 2012 3DS sales. It's that simple.
Watch this holiday season to see what I say come true.
2011 was too early for the 3DS & the price didn't help.
2012 was right on time for the 3DS & with the better price it exploded.
2013 builds upon 2012 as the library gets more & more entrenched.
Remember, in many retailers' game cases, 3DS games are still sharing about equal space with DS games (which naturally can play on 3DS).
Even as late as this summer, the Wal-Mart in my area had Midnight Blue DSi XL's in the case with 3DS's & 3DS XL's.
2014 will build upon 2013 since by that time the DS games should be a minority compared to the 3DS games on the shelf.
The system has not peaked by far. Remember how the DS kept climbing year after year?

Right now is the natural ebb & flow of sales per month.
One month does a little better than its previous year's counterpart, another month does a little worse than its previous year's counterpart.
But expect the Flow of this holiday season to counteract the Ebbs.
You guys are getting carried away with this '3DS is down' nonsense.
If these 'down' stats are in place come December, THEN we can talk.

This holiday season will show the beginning of Wii U's surge.
Remember, some people don't buy systems until the holidays.
They save their money all year long, they pay on layaway.
XBox One & PlayStation 4 have the hype for now but I expect STRONG sales for Wii U this Christmas/Kwanzaa/Hanukkah/Ramadan/Festivus.

Gamerace said:

Games alone cannot save a poor console design.   Didn't save the Virtual boy, didn't save the GC.  Both were selling better than WiiU at the moment.  So Nintendo has NO history of recessitating a console from this kind of dis-interest.   3DS was selling way better, even at it's worse, than WiiU and Vita was an even bigger disaster - more disconnected from the consumer's interests and more expensive - so 3DS had no competition (other than mobile).  WiiU will have LOTS of serious competition at very aggresive price points.  Both above it's price point with PS4 being only $100 more for a more powerful system with a lot more memory and games, and below with $99+ Android/iOS consoles.


Poor console design? Wii U IS NOT—I repeat—IS NOT the Virtual Boy. Virtual Boy had REAL identifiable problems that no one could deny.
Wii U is paying the penance for Wii's premature abortion. Nintendo stopped Wii in its prime & there's a spiritual backlash from it.
But Wii U's time in purgatory will be complete by the holidays. Like Wii did, it'll be on its Rise to Heaven.

NO history??? We got recent history. The 3DS itself.
Maybe the degree that Wii U is currently failing is greater but Nintendo turned the 3DS around ENTIRELY.
I have no doubt they'll do the same for the Wii U.
I trust Satoru Iwata. This man got SO MUCH of my respect & many others when in an age where CEOs escape with golden parachutes, he HALVES HIS PAY when his product didn't perform to expectations.
The BIG man took the hit. He didn't fire any low level employees. HE took the blame. The bigwigs took the blame.
As a matter of fact, as far as I know Nintendo NEVER drops their employees.
I think that is one of the reasons why they have remained so successful.
They value their people.

We'll never really know what happened with Gunpei Yokoi & Nintendo in the fallout of the Virtual Boy.
But based on the rest of Nintendo's track record I'll rule out the Yakuza-style hit theory & say that Yokoi truly was embarrassed & resigned out of shame.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I believe until given facts otherwise.

Iwata is sincere & Hiroshi Yamauchi couldn't have picked a better successor to govern Nintendo into the future.
Unlike Iwata, Yamauchi seemed to be a scary man who didn't make many personal appearances.
But he had a knack for seeing a good product & he knew talent when he saw it.
He knew to let the artists have the floor in his company. The way he structured the company created the atmosphere Iwata was immersed in at HAL Laboratory, the Nintendo associate.
Yamauchi's vision for Nintendo guides the company to this day & Iwata respects this vision.
He respects the braintrust, he was a part of that braintrust.
He values that braintrust & the people who make it up.
That's why he doesn't seem phony like most of these execs out here hawking products.

He'll right this ship & get Nintendo all the way back on the tracks. They're already halfway on now. Just gotta get the other half.
Having that stiff competition will make the return to form even MORE inspiring. BRING IT ON!!

Gamerace said:

I'm not disagreeing about the instability of either the 8th gen console market or mobile market.  But in no way is WiiU in a superior, or even as good, position.  If anything is going to benefit from PS4/XB1 failure it'll be PC and mobile.   The PC market has survived longer than Nintendo and it's not going anywhere.  Not when it's enjoying it's best sales in twenty years and still growing. 

Yes, the mobile market is going through a boom cycle to be followed by bust.  So did the console market and PC games when they started.  They are still around (even if very few of the original game developers are) and so will mobile be as well.


PC hasn't stopped consoles in 30 years & nothing's gonna change now.
I said before that PC will always be around due its hobbyist roots & modular nature of the platform & games that run on it.
It will ALWAYS be that wide-open field for people to test ideas without worry of marketability.
But as a business that ship has sailed long ago which is why most PC developers have switched to console part-time or full-time.
Only Maxis & Blizzard & maybe Valve have any true power in that space anymore. Others get a few crumbs here & there at best.
DLC is holding those guys together & nothing more.

You know I can't WAIT until the 3rd parties try to run to the mobile market or the PC market.
Electronic Arts, EA, STARTED as a PC developer. Madden was a PC game originally. Why aren't you there now?
I WANT to see them run & get caught up in the mobile crash.
I WANT to see them try to eke out of a living on the PC.
They need a serious humbling right now. LET 'em run!
If enough survive the trip, they'll run back & take shelter in Nintendo's house. You know, get in out of the rain. That storm.

Yep the console market crashed & you know who kept it from crashing again?
That little playing card company from Kyoto which makes the Pokeymans & Plumber Guys.
PC has NEVER fully returned to what it was since Nintendo came upon the scene with the NES.
And neither will the smartphone/tablet gang after their crash.
Anybody that DOES survive will end up emulating more or less the one who ensures stablity in this unstable business.
Yep, the ones who survive the mobile crash will probably end up doing some things Nintendo does.
Mobile Seal of Quality anyone?

Gamerace said:

I'm not even hating on Nintendo.  I believing in Nintendo.  I AM predicting they'll will the 8th gen.   Nintendo has the mass appeal (potential) that Sony/MS cant touch.  But WiiU does not.  It's not the ship that's going to get them there.  It's another Virtual Boy/GC.  It's a backward step away from what the Wii started.   

And you have yet to say a single thing to show otherwise other than Nintendo's history but their history is not favourable to consoles selling even close to WiiU's levels.  It's not on your side.   Yes I get what Nintendo was TRYING to do.  I get that they understand the market better and are thinking longer term but they are certainly not immune to mistakes (remember Wii Music?) but they do tend to recover from them nicely.


We have a fundamental disagreement on Wii U. I believe it WILL be the ship that gets them there.
And don't put down the Gamecube. Gamecube had its revenge through Wii & will continue to have its last laughs through Wii U.
I always called Gamecube 'Imperfect Cell' from Dragon Ball Z. Almost right but missing those few key components, that one last Android to become Perfect.
Gamecube went for small form factor, low power consumption, pound-for-pound power, accessibility in controls, family friendly nature (this is a constant for Nintendo consoles actually).
But the boxy cube was not quite right compared to Wii's 3 DVDs high design.
Gamecube's controller tried its best to make the evolution of the NES standard more accessible with more extreme button differentiation but Wii got the accessibility right with the Wiimote/Nunchuk combo.
They fine-tuned the family-first tenet present in all their consoles by naming the product Wii & showing that it was for more than the kiddies.
It was for the kiddies, adults, AND seniors.
They got the low power consumption right on & the pound-for-pound power right on.

Wii was Perfect Cell & now Wii U is Super Perfect Cell.
Wii blew itself up & became stronger as a result.
And there's no Gohan to battle him back either.

No company is immune from mistakes. Including my beloved Nintendo.
I STILL say Nintendo should have incorporated WiiConnect24 into their Nintendo Network instead of just ending the service altogether like that.
The remaining Wiis on the shelves could talk with the Wii U's through Wii mode & connect.
It's a missed opportunity & I still think it was a waste to just cut the service off so soon like this.

Well if you don't say Nintendo's history points to a turnaround, then I'll say they'll MAKE history.
Though I say 3DS already proved this point, we'll just say there's a first time for everything (but actually this'll be the second ).

I liked Wii Music actually. They probably should have waited until after the Wii Motion Plus was out to release it so people wouldn't complain about the controls.
I bet other companies would kill to have 3 million+ sales "failures".
Wii Music will looked back on fondly in my opinion. I've heard of talented people transforming Wii Music's pre-selected tunes into a whole new sounding song.
Read this article in its 3-page entirety. Nah I'll just post all 3 pages up for you.
The brilliance of Wii Music - Part 1

The brilliance of Wii Music - Part 2: evidence of awesomeness
The brillaince of Wii Music - Part 3: The Myths

The only element missing was a Mario Paint-style sheet music maker to draw from.
THAT was the game's biggest mistake.

I would love to see an improved version on Wii U actually.
Would be yet another feather in Wii U's by-then feather-filled cap.
John Lucas


Yeah I think we are all in basic agreement except were it comes to WiiU specifically.

I have always said the return to dual analog controls was a huge fundimental mistake and Nintendo did themselves a huge injustice with is because it basically gives the impression that Nintendo themselves have invalidated the genius that was the wiimote/nunchuk.    Where the wiimote/nunchuk wasn't perfect - spotty detection, recalibration with WM+ (annoying as sin), the dang cord between wiimote/nunchuk, etc., it was in many ways a huge breakthrough.   

WiiU should have come out with a modified wiimote/nunchuk which is more like a 'breakable' dual analog.   Basically, two wiimotes (and absolutely they could have a small touch screen on them, perferable replacing the +/-,1/2 buttons, each with an analog stick, FULL motion and IR aiming (true duel welding guns/swords!),  and whatever other goodies they could fit in there.   Locked together it's a small gamepad, apart it's the best of both worlds.

But by forcing people to use a dual analog controller, it's put WiiU into the same boat as PS3/360.   The dual screen is the same as 3DS's 3D.  Yawn worthy.  People don't care, aren't interested, it just doesn't add to the fun factor in any perceptible way.  Instead it detracts because it looks too big, too heavy, too uncomfortable, too confusing and unintuitive (how are you suppose to touch the screen when your fingers and all used on the dual analog controls?)   This is more perception than reality but that's a HUGE drag on WiiU's sales.  As is the fact that the gamepad adds so much to the cost of the system.   

So if people don't care about the 2nd screen (it's old, DS had it ages ago, heck Dreamcast had it before that!) then WiiU is just a late 7th gen system, playing the same 7th gen games as PS360 and a few Nintendo titles that really, could have all been on Wii (Nintendoland/Game & Wario duly excepted).   Why is anyone going to pay $100 more for a Nintendo HD gaming console with few games when PS360 are $100 less (with more memory, blu-ray, better online) and a huge and now cheap games library?   For Nintendo games?  Didn't save gamecube, won't save WiiU.  Or 'true' next-gen systems are only $100 more playing 'true' next-gen games, none of which - so far - are coming to WiiU. 

Whenever Nintendo makes it's consoles too close to the competition (who are on the wrong path ultimately) they lose out, it's when they are distinct that they prosper.   No one sees the touch screen as a useful innovation or that it 'adds' to the fun.  Much of Wii's audience will see the return to dual analog as a clear sign that Nintendo doesn't care about them anymore and has returned to catering to the kids/nerds - which I feel is exactly the case here.  So it's seen as just another 7th gen HD console with dual analog controls - just more expensive and ultimately, not as good.

Nintendo needs to get out from that, and make another DS/Wii type breakout console that does what the others (including mobile) DON'T.   WiiU is just more of the same with a lame gimmick, which is also true of 3DS.  3DS has no real competition though, WiiU does on every price point, every angle and every genre. It fails to set itself apart and is therefore lost in the shuffle.



 

Here is a bit of presumption running through a number of people's minds here. That presumption is this: People presume that the bulk of the population MUST have a dedicated platform for gaming. People here thinking buying a device just to play games alone (ok, some other stuff secondarily on it) is what MOST people have. What is the real percentage of people for whom this is a necessity is a fraction of the current market we know? You will then have contraction, and talent leaving, because the market is too small. nin10do's post above presumes this, PRESUMING that soccer moms feel that having a dedicated system for their kids is something they have to do, and there is NO reason why they won't return to Nintendo and get it. The thing is the kids aren't requesting the WiiU at all, but are requesting smart devices. Parents are more inclined to get these. And if they do games sufficiently, the parents are happy, and Nintendo doesn't get sales for the home market.

There is still the core audience of early adopters though, but the Wii U isn't for them either. So exactly WHO is the Wii U for? If the Wii U was all that, early adopters would of bought it, but they didn't. And this lack of sales means Nintendo is NOT getting the third-party titles, so it isn't the best place to play them, because they are missing. Is what is offered sufficiently superior that people will end up buying it to play mulitplatform over the 360 or PS3? Apparently not, since maybe it has better graphics, but it doesn't have the online network for multiplayer like the 360 and PS3 have. And you have other titles that are either old, or lacking in comparison to other versions on other platforms (Sniper Elite Wii U).

Again here, a dedicated gaming device is NOT something that people MUST have. To presume otherwise is folly.



Wii U WILL BE THE LEADER of the 8th Generation Consoles BY FAR. It will outsell the XBox One & PlayStation 4 HANDILY throughout the generation.
And should The Revolution go as planned, this will be the LAST CONSOLE WAR between Nintendo, Sony, & Microsoft.
Wii U obtains what was denied to Wii. Wii U at last becomes EVERYBODY'S CONSOLE.
Oh & you want a number? Here's one for you: 12 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2013.
Here's another: 35 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2014.
Here's one more: 60 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2015.
And one more for the road: 240 million LIFETIME Wii U sales.

 

Well, no is all I have to say to that. WiiU becomes everybody's console? I can't even ....

WiiU does NOT appeal to the core, it doesn't and won't have full third party support, if you want to see how important that is, look at PS3 and 360 sales, they will come close/overtake lifetime Wii sales, and those sales are to 90% plus regular gamers.

Wii sold mainly to casuals and it was the IT product of its time, nout wrong with that but don't go painting it like it was the gamers choice, that was PS360.

This time around they're not even appealing to the casuals, exactly what is going to be the catalyst in the great turn around for WiiU this holiday? It's frankly embarassing you expect 8 milion shipped from now to the end of the year.



 

Seece said:
johnlucas said:

Wii U WILL BE THE LEADER of the 8th Generation Consoles BY FAR. It will outsell the XBox One & PlayStation 4 HANDILY throughout the generation.
And should The Revolution go as planned, this will be the LAST CONSOLE WAR between Nintendo, Sony, & Microsoft.
Wii U obtains what was denied to Wii. Wii U at last becomes EVERYBODY'S CONSOLE.
Oh & you want a number? Here's one for you: 12 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2013.
Here's another: 35 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2014.
Here's one more: 60 million Wii U's sold by December 31, 2015.
And one more for the road: 240 million LIFETIME Wii U sales.

Well, no is all I have to say to that. WiiU becomes everybody's console? I can't even ....

WiiU does NOT appeal to the core, it doesn't and won't have full third party support, if you want to see how important that is, look at PS3 and 360 sales, they will come close/overtake lifetime Wii sales, and those sales are to 90% plus regular gamers.

Wii sold mainly to casuals and it was the IT product of its time, nout wrong with that but don't go painting it like it was the gamers choice, that was PS360.

This time around they're not even appealing to the casuals, exactly what is going to be the catalyst in the great turn around for WiiU this holiday? It's frankly embarassing you expect 8 milion shipped from now to the end of the year.


Seece Seece Seece.
You have been brainwashed by marketing terms.
There is NO SUCH THING as a Casual Gamer.
There is NO SUCH THING as a Hardcore Gamer.

There are people who may play a game casually.
There are people who may play a game hardcore.
But those terms create a false stereotype that make you reduce real audiences to caricatures.

Casual = 30-something Soccer Mom with the minivan in the suburbs.
Hardcore = 18-year old College-Age Male who lives off of Mountain Dew & Cheez-Its.

No, it's BS. It's pure BULL (I wish I could say the real word).
I myself play with a group of 40, 50, 60 year olds on the game Animal Crossing: City Folk (& now New Leaf).
They play this game HARDCORE. Heavy players. REALLY into it. They play everyday or just about everyday for hours at a time.

On the same token there are some young 20-something year old males who play Madden casually.
They don't invest much time into the strategy & skill level. They just play for laughs every now & then.

But the "cartoony" game is supposed to be Casual & the "realistic" game is supposed to Hardcore, right?
And by extension the players of the "cartoony" game are Casual & the players of the "realistic" game are Hardcore, that's how it goes?

Hell, Animal Crossing is more based in realism than the football fantasy known as Madden.
In Animal Crossing I got to worry about paying a mortgage.
It doesn't get more adult than that!
Almost every little boy fantasized about being a football player when he grew up.
Ranked right up there with Fireman & Astronaut.

Wii didn't sell to "casuals". It sold to EVERYBODY.
It sold to EVERYBODY who wasn't brainwashed by those stupid Casual/Hardcore labels.
This didn't exist in the days of the Atari 2600 & the NES.
We played everything & anything. As long as it was fun.

Nintendo IS the Core. The Core, the Heart, & the Soul of the Videogame Industry.

The PS360 wouldn't even have the not-yet 80 million sales in 8 years time that they have had they not emulated the REAL Gamer's Choice, the Wii.
I watched the sales numbers for years. I saw it. Their sales DOUBLED after they mimicked Nintendo's direction.
That's why Kinect & Move exist. That's why Microsoft's Blades became Avatars. That's why Kevin Butler was created to promote Sony as "all about the games" when they used to be all about the Blu-ray.

Just meet me here at the end of the year.
Meet me here this time next year.
I want to hear your reaction then.
John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!