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Forums - PC - Gaming at 4K: not anytime soon?

JEMC said:

@Lafiel: There are so many types of AA that I'm completely lost, I don't know what does each one do.

FSAA (full scene anti aliasing) is the most basic form of AA, but also the most power hungry and with the best results, as it just renders the whole game at a higher res and then downsamples it

all other AA methods use complex algorithms and/or scene analyzation tools to determine where anti-aliasing has to be applied to lessen the burden on the GPU, while(ideally) having the same results as with FSAA



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I checked out the 50 inch Seiki 4K TV last night at tiger direct...will make a thread about it with my impressions.

But has anyone read/heard/seen this?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seiki-expands-its-4k-ultra-hdtv-line-with-a-new-39-inch-model-212807501.html

If the 39 inch model behaves and looks the same as the 50 inch I saw last night...I am buying this thing immediately.



Lafiel said:

well, 4k native resolution already is like having 4xFSAA at 1080p, because that's what FSAA does, render at a higher resolution and then downsize it to a smaller res

Viper1 said:

In fact, this is why we won't be seeing 4K resolution as a mainstream resolution for a very long time.    It's simply overkill for practically everyone.

You really need a 55" TV or larger to actually perceive a difference in resolution from 1920 to 4K.   Any TV/monitor sizes below will be largely indistinguishable (unless you sit 2 feet away from it).

yet photos taken in 4k clearly look much better than at 1080p or 720p (even when viewed on a smartphone screen)

there is a difference and it's obvious even at reasonable screen sizes

That's a different thing going on.   Look at what most camera's image resolution is these days anyway...16 megapixels or so.   That's twice as many pixels as 4K.   

But this has a lot to do with image sensor size, pixel air, ISO and much more.   I can take my 6 MP camera and take far better looking images than most of today's 16 MP point and shoot cameras an certainly better than any smartphone camera.   Resolution in 3D graphics on a TV and picture resolution are 2 similar but different beasts.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

disolitude said:
I checked out the 50 inch Seiki 4K TV last night at tiger direct...will make a thread about it with my impressions.

But has anyone read/heard/seen this?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seiki-expands-its-4k-ultra-hdtv-line-with-a-new-39-inch-model-212807501.html

If the 39 inch model behaves and looks the same as the 50 inch I saw last night...I am buying this thing immediately.

If you use it for a computer monitor, you'll need to increase the DPI for icons and text.  Otherwise it would look like fine print.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

@Lafiel: Thanks.

No, that won't be needed at 4K (I hope), but something a lot less taxing (MSAA?) could still be useful.

 

@disolitude: That's a very pretty TV, and quite cheap if the price is true!



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

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I run some of my games in SSAA x4 which is essentially running the game in 4k. My 7970 overclocked to perform at 780 levels handles it fine. Like someone else said, you would obviously turn down AA (Or turn it Off) as it isn't needed nearly as much.

Games I can max out in 4K at 60 FPS include: Borderlands 2, Mass Effect 1-3, Chivalry, and All of Valve's Source games.

P.S. Yes it looks beautiful :)



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

Eddie_Raja said:
I run some of my games in SSAA x4 which is essentially running the game in 4k. My 7970 overclocked to perform at 780 levels handles it fine. Like someone else said, you would obviously turn down AA (Or turn it Off) as it isn't needed nearly as much.

 Games I can max out in 4K at 60 FPS include: Borderlands 2 (Unreal Engine 3), Mass Effect 1-3 (Unreal Engine 3), Chivalry (Unreal Engine 3), and All of Valve's Source games.

P.S. Yes it looks beautiful :)

We'll see what happens when games using Unreal Engine 4 start to appear.

And, no disrespect, but the Source engine is not that demanding. It has what, 9-10 years?



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

Viper1 said:
disolitude said:
I checked out the 50 inch Seiki 4K TV last night at tiger direct...will make a thread about it with my impressions.

But has anyone read/heard/seen this?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seiki-expands-its-4k-ultra-hdtv-line-with-a-new-39-inch-model-212807501.html

If the 39 inch model behaves and looks the same as the 50 inch I saw last night...I am buying this thing immediately.

If you use it for a computer monitor, you'll need to increase the DPI for icons and text.  Otherwise it would look like fine print.

I don't think it will be that bad. 3840x2160 @ 39 inches is roughly the same PPI as 2560x1440 @ 27 inches...which is a very common resolution.



Viper1 said:
JEMC said:
 

Fine, but which size is the smallest 4K TV/monitor available today? 30"?

And how long will it take them to launch 24" 4K monitors?

AHA...I'm glad you asked because I was hoping someone would.

In fact, this is why we won't be seeing 4K resolution as a mainstream resolution for a very long time.    It's simply overkill for practically everyone.

You really need a 55" TV or larger to actually perceive a difference in resolution from 1920 to 4K.   Any TV/monitor sizes below will be largely indistinguishable (unless you sit 2 feet away from it).

There is no movie medium, no broadcast backing, the entertainment industry simply has little desire or need (or the hundreds of billions in capital it would require) to move toward 4K.

4K will be extremely niche for a long time.

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/07/02/asus-315-inch-4k-pc-monitor-available-for-pre-order-costs-3500

It's not overkill for PC monitors as you sit a lot closer generally, 2ft is not all that close to a pc monitor.
A 24" 4K monitor has the same resolution to your eyes at 2 ft, as a 1080p 55" tv at 9 ft. When gaming behind the pc with mouse+kb my eye distance is only about 1ft8" from the screen.
Your horizontal field of view increases from 25 degrees to 47 degrees compared to the tv, a lot more immersive.
Or you can look at it this way, sitting 2ft from a 24" monitor is the same as enjoying a 120" projector screen at 10ft.

In this example you get about 75 pixels per degree resolution, which is a bit above the 60 pixels per degree recommended to be able to read the smallest text with 20/20 vision. However that is still very low to not be able to see aliasing artifacts, for that you need to go upwards to 200 pixels per degree. That's where double blind tests show people merely guessing at which picture looks better.
To take the 31.5" monitor from that link, you can turn aliasing options of from 7ft away and enjoy a smooth picture, any closer and you still need anti aliasing. (You probably still need some for of anti aliasing as temporal aliasing will still show up)


4K is getting affordable already http://gizmodo.com/wow-a-4k-tv-for-1080-is-simply-bonkers-513578198
After earth, This is the end, Elysium have been mastered in 4K this year, and plenty of old movies still have some extra juice left in them. A good 35mm print yields about 3.2K resolution. Considering a 2.35:1 movie translates to 3840x1635 on 4K tv's and the anamorphic process used for 2.35:1 movies uses the whole 35mm frame, the 35mm print is still a bit above the vertical resolution of a 2.35:1 movie on a 4K tv.
And there there is a whole list of 70mm films that have resolutions north of 6K http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_70_mm_films

I would wait until hdmi 2.0 tv's show up (next year). Without that you're limited to 24fps for 4K input, only suitable for movies. The blu-ray consortium is expected to release their 4K spec by the end of the year. CES 2014 will be interesting.
Netflix has plans to go 4K, Sony is launching their 4K service as well. PS4 and X1 won't be doing 4K gaming with hdmi 1.4, they'll only be able to do 4k movie streaming. PCs will be able to do 1080p console games in 4K in a few years. They can do it now already, Witcher 2 ubersampling is essentially a 4K mode downscaled to 1080p, many other games already run fine with 4K rendering downscaled to 1080p.



JEMC said:
Eddie_Raja said:
I run some of my games in SSAA x4 which is essentially running the game in 4k. My 7970 overclocked to perform at 780 levels handles it fine. Like someone else said, you would obviously turn down AA (Or turn it Off) as it isn't needed nearly as much.

 Games I can max out in 4K at 60 FPS include: Borderlands 2 (Unreal Engine 3), Mass Effect 1-3 (Unreal Engine 3), Chivalry (Unreal Engine 3), and All of Valve's Source games.

P.S. Yes it looks beautiful :)

We'll see what happens when games using Unreal Engine 4 start to appear.

And, no disrespect, but the Source engine is not that demanding. It has what, 9-10 years?

Nice catch!  And I never said they are hard to run games (That was kinda my point).  I am saying on one hand yes 4K is harder to run, but on the other hand it is no where near bonecrushing!  In fact I can easily play BF3 and Metro: 2033 at 30 FPS in 4K (But I don't lol as my screen is 1080p and I wouldn't notice the difference).



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]