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Forums - Gaming - This type of bad news is far worse for MS than Nintendo.

superchunk said:
disolitude said:


Because it uses the same AMD APU as the X1, but with a slightly better gpu supposedly...

If X1 is having yield issues with its APU, PS4 would be in the same boat.

They are not being produced by same vendor. AMD helped design the APU... not fabricating it.

I dont get it...are you saying AMD didny design the PS4 APU and that they are not manufacturing it using Global Foundries?



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disolitude said:
superchunk said:
disolitude said:


Because it uses the same AMD APU as the X1, but with a slightly better gpu supposedly...

If X1 is having yield issues with its APU, PS4 would be in the same boat.

They are not being produced by same vendor. AMD helped design the APU... not fabricating it.

I dont get it...are you saying AMD didny design the PS4 APU and that they are not manufacturing it using Global Foundries?

They're similar but have a different executions that are down to each companies own designers from what I've read AMD probably just provided the base component, I'll quote it below on the XBO design.

 

"On one of these wafers they can fit many chips which they then cut out (like baking a pizza and cutting it into identical slices)


There will however be defects on the wafer, the chips that occupy the areas that have the defects on them are either useless or can be used as lower end parts by disabling part of the chip
(like if a gpu has 18 compute units you could only use 16 if the defect is on one of the others, ps4 already does this by only using 18 out of 20 cus so they can have two for redundancy to improve yields) 

Not all of them come out as well as the others and some can handle more voltage than others, so they can be higher clocked.

Now the problem is that when you have really large chips.
The larger the chip the bigger the chance that each chip will have a defect. (exponentially much so) 
If you have 10 defects on your wafer but you fit 100 small dies on the wafer then only at most 10 , so ten percent, will be throwaway or salvaged as low end part, but if you only fit 10 on there then it's likely that many of them may have one of those defects.
You could easily have to throw away 30-50 percent or even all of them.

Xbox one uses APU which is a really big die that needs to house the cpu, gpu AND in xbox one's case also the ESRAM which takes up a huge amount of transistors and therefor physical space on the chip.
They end up with little hardware power yet a huge (5 billion transistor) die, so they have low yields.
Normally low end hardware only takes a tiny little die so yields are good, but for some reason that either MS engineers or suits/beancounters can only know they decided to go for this huge ass APU with esram.

From my limited knowledge Sony ended up with a lot more bang for their buck... they put their die space into a bit more gpu power and didn't design their apu around needing esram (since they didn't cheap out on the vram, which is a collection of seperate chips that are embedded on a PCB and connected to the APU through a memory bus)
Meanwhile MS seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater."



Wyrdness said:
disolitude said:
superchunk said:
disolitude said:


Because it uses the same AMD APU as the X1, but with a slightly better gpu supposedly...

If X1 is having yield issues with its APU, PS4 would be in the same boat.

They are not being produced by same vendor. AMD helped design the APU... not fabricating it.

I dont get it...are you saying AMD didny design the PS4 APU and that they are not manufacturing it using Global Foundries?

They're similar but have a different executions that are down to each companies own designers from what I've read AMD probably just provided the base component, I'll quote it below on the XBO design.


That is an interesting perspective. It certanly sounds possible that Microsoft may have some yield issues if this is true...

It does paint both AMD and Microsoft teams that worked on this as a bunch of fools compared to Sony which makes me doubt the whole story. But I dont have information to say yay or nay...



Wyrdness said:

Ok I posted about this in Chunk's other thread but have now read further into the GAF thread and omg if the following is true it can't be a good sign as it indicates they've bungled or rushed their console design and have been caught off guard.

Thread where it started

[b]"Two of our most trusted neoGAF insiders have said that Microsoft is reacting hard to what has went down, and so they're going to try to dismantle PS4's image as a "for gamers" console by paying publishers and devs to not show their multiplatform titles during E3 on a PS4. In other words, even if the multiplatform version is coming out for the PS4, they won't be able to show them at E3, thus contributing to the perception that somehow Sony is getting significantly less support for PS4 than Microsoft is "for gamers."

Of course, I'm sure multiplatform games will slip through - they can't possibly pay everyone - but it's extremely telling how they're choosing to spend their money. Rather than do the thing everyone wants, which is end the anti-consumer nonsense, they'll spend their time trying to deceive everyone instead. That should say it all about Microsoft since this year
started"

Now, I could be wrong but, are Microsoft trying to make those games seem excludcives? If so then, those must be the 20 exudcives games

they were talking about? Come on Microsoft, stop throwing money at the wrong things. it's not like you're actually scared of Sony, right?



disolitude said:


That is an interesting perspective. It certanly sounds possible that Microsoft may have some yield issues if this is true...

It does paint both AMD and Microsoft teams that worked on this as a bunch of fools compared to Sony which makes me doubt the whole story. But I dont have information to say yay or nay...


Maybe but I get the impression that AMD provided MS and Sony with an APU and the two companies then made their modifications based on their own systems so it may actually be down to MS.



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gooch_destroyer said:

Now, I could be wrong but, are Microsoft trying to make those games seem excludcives? If so then, those must be the 20 exudcives games

they were talking about? Come on Microsoft, stop throwing money at the wrong things. it's not like you're actually scared of Sony, right?


Basically if true it's a PR move much like timed exclusives or when they announced FFXIII for 360, from what I gather it makes it look like they have more or equal to offer gamers then Sony and if the GPU problems are true the won't be direct comparisons for some multiplatform titles that show up.



If the Xbox One bombs, it will have deserved to, because of Microsoft's hubris and bad design planning.



Wyrdness said:

Ok I posted about this in Chunk's other thread but have now read further into the GAF thread and omg if the following is true it can't be a good sign as it indicates they've bungled or rushed their console design and have been caught off guard.

Thread where it started

"Two of our most trusted neoGAF insiders have said that Microsoft is reacting hard to what has went down, and so they're going to try to dismantle PS4's image as a "for gamers" console by paying publishers and devs to not show their multiplatform titles during E3 on a PS4. In other words, even if the multiplatform version is coming out for the PS4, they won't be able to show them at E3, thus contributing to the perception that somehow Sony is getting significantly less support for PS4 than Microsoft is "for gamers."

Of course, I'm sure multiplatform games will slip through - they can't possibly pay everyone - but it's extremely telling how they're choosing to spend their money. Rather than do the thing everyone wants, which is end the anti-consumer nonsense, they'll spend their time trying to deceive everyone instead. That should say it all about Microsoft since this year started"

Absolutely disgusted by this.. but not at all surprised, given their recent endevours. In all my years of gaming, I've never once wanted a console to bomb as much as this One.



Well someone has sense PS4 wins obviously!



hinch said:
Wyrdness said:

Ok I posted about this in Chunk's other thread but have now read further into the GAF thread and omg if the following is true it can't be a good sign as it indicates they've bungled or rushed their console design and have been caught off guard.

Thread where it started

"Two of our most trusted neoGAF insiders have said that Microsoft is reacting hard to what has went down, and so they're going to try to dismantle PS4's image as a "for gamers" console by paying publishers and devs to not show their multiplatform titles during E3 on a PS4. In other words, even if the multiplatform version is coming out for the PS4, they won't be able to show them at E3, thus contributing to the perception that somehow Sony is getting significantly less support for PS4 than Microsoft is "for gamers."

Of course, I'm sure multiplatform games will slip through - they can't possibly pay everyone - but it's extremely telling how they're choosing to spend their money. Rather than do the thing everyone wants, which is end the anti-consumer nonsense, they'll spend their time trying to deceive everyone instead. That should say it all about Microsoft since this year started"

Absolutely disgusted by this.. but not at all surprised, given their recent endevours. In all my years of gaming, I've never once wanted a console to bomb as much as this One.

i'll tell you what, i'm not going to be too happy with the companies that take MS's FUD money either..