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Forums - Politics - Alternate history: Had Native Americans not been hit hard by European illnesses

sethnintendo said:
newwil7l said:
The Spanish would have still tooken them down. They were just to strong

Spain mainly benefited from the Portuguese - Spanish agreement.  Spanish domination fell once the Spanish-American War.  USA kicked their ass and soon other nations realized Spain was vulnerable.  After that Spain wasn't anything.



Exactly my point. Everyone in the world feared Spain for some time. The USA kicked their ass hard. After that Spain was never taken as seriously.

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newwil7l said:
sethnintendo said:
newwil7l said:
The Spanish would have still tooken them down. They were just to strong

Spain mainly benefited from the Portuguese - Spanish agreement.  Spanish domination fell once the Spanish-American War.  USA kicked their ass and soon other nations realized Spain was vulnerable.  After that Spain wasn't anything.



Exactly my point. Everyone in the world feared Spain for some time. The USA kicked their ass hard. After that Spain was never taken as seriously.

Point granted..  Nobody fears Spain anymore.



spurgeonryan said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalWhatIf/comments/to9ju/what_if_native_americans_werent_decimated_by_the/
http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalWhatIf/comments/13cum2/what_if_the_native_americans_had_a_natural/

They post media create on neogaf as well, should we just go there and discuss it instead if discussing it here? Huh! Huh!

i already do that



I think we probably would of integrated the native Americans better rather then basically committing ethnic cleansing....

other then that though, even not decimated by sickness... Europe's Gun Technnology I think was just too much.



Darth Tigris said:
sethnintendo said:

I like this thread and you get a +1 in respect points from me even though we are no longer friends. This is the last thread I will comment in for awhile. I view Native Americans as being "the most close" to "god". They respected nature. They had no land ownership. I despise most humans these days. I despise you along with myself. I want to think humans are good but they disappoint me every time. This world would be better off without humans. Humans are a virus on this planet. We serve no good and no purpose. I hate myself and I wish I never existed.



I mean... I hate to rain on everybodies parade... but that's mostly just false sentimentality of a culture that was essentially ethnically cleansed... and a general underestimation of Native American technology at the time.


Native Americans were the originators of manmade global warming, from all the trees they cut down and carbon dioxide they gave off by burning trees and plants to make room for plants that were more useful for human consumption

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/100415_carbon.htm

http://phys.org/news/2011-01-role-climate.html

 

 Settling in North Ameica was so easy because the Nataive Americans terroformed the hell out of the natural ecosystem and changed pretty much everything.

Buffalo a sign of Native American's superiority in dealing with nature only existed everywhere because the native americans burned the shit out of the forests on the east coast on fire making the forrests fallow enough for the Bison to be everywhere on the continent.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vSCra8jUI2EC&pg=PA286&dq=Rather+than+the+thick,+unbroken,+monumental+snarl+of+trees+imagined+by+Thoreau&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ov6ZT9_YK6Xy2QXAuICVDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Rather%20than%20the%20thick%2C%20unbroken%2C%20monumental%20snarl%20of%20trees%20imagined%20by%20Thoreau&f=false

The American continent looked respected and unchanged soley because we didn't actually know what the unchanged wilderness looked like.   All the stuff they found useless was already killed off.

 

As for Native Americans not believing in land ownership... that's also totally false and essentially based on semantics.   If you belonged to a Native Aerican tribe you damn well better believe you couldn't enter another tribe's land without getting their permission.   

There isn't much info on the history before europeons got there because of well... ethnic cleansing, but it's worth noting that after the Eureopeons showed up Native Americans were more then willing to fight for more territory and resources to mke money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars

 

I do remember the Lakota fighting wars for territory after having to relocate but I'm not sure if that was before or after europeons ended up on the continent.

 

It's highly likely that the reason they didn't fight wars over resources anymore was because they used to have a much larger population... therefore they just didnt need supply cause they had all the demand.  By the time we started settling and documenting their history (before destroying their cuture and historical records) they were down to like 5% of their total population.  So the only wars that ever needed to be fought were "mourning wars".  

Which were fighting for the one resource that had suddenly become scarce... people.

Which all lead to the common misconceptions we hold about Native Americans.



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I think that's a hard question to answer. It's hard to know how America would be if most of the Native population wasn't killed. America would probably be different if many Natives hadn't died from disease or war. There would definitely be a bigger population of Native peoples, and there probably wouldn't be reservations. Also, people like my family and other Native families probably wouldn't have had to hid who they were and lose their traditions.



sethnintendo said:
newwil7l said:
The Spanish would have still tooken them down. They were just to strong

Spain mainly benefited from the Portuguese - Spanish agreement.  Spanish domination fell once the Spanish-American War.  USA kicked their ass and soon other nations realized Spain was vulnerable.  After that Spain wasn't anything.

Are you really talking about the Spanish American War of 1898?

This is nonsense



It would delay it but it wouldn't stop it. More interesting in my opinion is how this would have affected the revolutionary war. Would the colonies have been too weak to win?



It's not over. I'm around a quarter native american. We will get our revenge.



Kasz216 said:

I mean... I hate to rain on everybodies parade... but that's mostly just false sentimentality of a culture that was essentially ethnically cleansed... and a general underestimation of Native American technology at the time.

Agree.

Here in South America, like in Australia, man-made fires during the course of millenia are the reason you have a sparse tropical shrub vegetation and a poor, metal-rich soil where seasonal forest should be. We even have a major city named after a native american clearing. 

There are reports on how the portuguese were amused how the natives were eager to bring trees down once they got the tools for do it because for them, just as for the portuguese, the "green hell"  was sometimes downright unbearable to live. 

Yeah. Because that's what humans do. Perhaps you'll have better luck admiring the Na'vi.

--

Either way, for those too sentimental or lamenting american colonization, it remains to be known whether even if the 19m population of the continent by 1500 was downright exterminated, if those losses would be greater than european losses due to overpopulation and war if they couldn't vent somewhere.