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Forums - Politics Discussion - I #standwithrand to protest drone killings (TEXAS STRAIGHT TALK VIDEO)

Mazty on 10 March 2013
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:
sc94597 said:

We don't know if he was or not. We have NO information. 

Hence, why they shouldn't be given the ability to harm others without any auditing. 

That is a logical fallacy. At the start of the 20th century "modern countries" didn't commit genocide either. Then once the economic pressures came people started to point fingers and take away the liberty, property, and lives of others. We can't change human nature, but we can certainly put safeguards to minimalize the effects of it. 

So you're telling me that because I don't live in China the media doesn't lie to me or skew the facts? lol. How blissful. There is plenty of propaganda in the corporate owned media which affect voting and support for political actions. 

Let's forget the current world status for a second though. The world changes quite rapidly, and who isn't to say that twenty years from now many of the things we think aren't possible now might become possible. 


The auditing will be classified...

Go watch Unthinkable. You need to understand how the way to save people isn't always the morally easiest. 

At the beginning of the 20th century there was an arms race and very little economic dependancy on one another, so no, it's not a fallacy. 

Media =/= government. In China there is litteraly a department of propogande. In the US you're free to choose CNN, Fox or Al Jazerra. In 20 years from now 50% of US citizens will probably still own a firearm. Have fun being the president who pisses them off.

I mean a public auditing. 

I'm not talking about "saving" people. I'm talking about not harming them. 

So when the stock market collapsed in the 30's it wasn't a global depression? Things haven't changed. They're just following cycles. 

When both the government and media are sponsored by the same corporations, it makes no difference. We have a corporatist govenrment in the U.S. The media is owned by the corporations and the government is funded by the corporations. CNN, Fox, etc are all controlled by different (or in some cases the same) corporations all with their own corporate interests. It's like saying choose which guy you want to beat you up and steal your money in order to spend that money to buy a gun and kill somebody in order to gain a profit. 


Why have the auditing public? Do you really think joe-average has what it takes to make the right decisions about his countries security?

Learn what collateral is. 

Oh right I forgot that the credit crunch is identical to the 30's recession....

Yes it does make a difference because you can choose to watch Republican/Democratic news stations or non-biased ones & are aware it's propoganda. True propoganda is indistinguishable from the truth. Go live in China or Russia if you really want to experience repression and propoganda because at the moment you're creating a threat where none exists.



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sc94597 on 10 March 2013
Mazty said:
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:
sc94597 said:

We don't know if he was or not. We have NO information. 

Hence, why they shouldn't be given the ability to harm others without any auditing. 

That is a logical fallacy. At the start of the 20th century "modern countries" didn't commit genocide either. Then once the economic pressures came people started to point fingers and take away the liberty, property, and lives of others. We can't change human nature, but we can certainly put safeguards to minimalize the effects of it. 

So you're telling me that because I don't live in China the media doesn't lie to me or skew the facts? lol. How blissful. There is plenty of propaganda in the corporate owned media which affect voting and support for political actions. 

Let's forget the current world status for a second though. The world changes quite rapidly, and who isn't to say that twenty years from now many of the things we think aren't possible now might become possible. 


The auditing will be classified...

Go watch Unthinkable. You need to understand how the way to save people isn't always the morally easiest. 

At the beginning of the 20th century there was an arms race and very little economic dependancy on one another, so no, it's not a fallacy. 

Media =/= government. In China there is litteraly a department of propogande. In the US you're free to choose CNN, Fox or Al Jazerra. In 20 years from now 50% of US citizens will probably still own a firearm. Have fun being the president who pisses them off.

I mean a public auditing. 

I'm not talking about "saving" people. I'm talking about not harming them. 

So when the stock market collapsed in the 30's it wasn't a global depression? Things haven't changed. They're just following cycles. 

When both the government and media are sponsored by the same corporations, it makes no difference. We have a corporatist govenrment in the U.S. The media is owned by the corporations and the government is funded by the corporations. CNN, Fox, etc are all controlled by different (or in some cases the same) corporations all with their own corporate interests. It's like saying choose which guy you want to beat you up and steal your money in order to spend that money to buy a gun and kill somebody in order to gain a profit. 


Why have the auditing public? Do you really think joe-average has what it takes to make the right decisions about his countries security?

Learn what collateral is. 

Oh right I forgot that the credit crunch is identical to the 30's recession....

Yes it does make a difference because you can choose to watch Republican/Democratic news stations or non-biased ones & are aware it's propoganda. True propoganda is indistinguishable from the truth. Go live in China or Russia if you really want to experience repression and propoganda because at the moment you're creating a threat where none exists.

"Joe-average" has the right to know how the decisions were made during the audition. 

You are assuming people are being helped in this case. I am assuming they are not. 

You said the economies weren't entangled, when they were in fact entangled to a large extent. It was the nationalism that occured after the great depression which disetangled them. 

Actually, my roommate is from China and he told me quite clearly that everybody knows the propaganda of the state is indeed farcical. That's not the definiton of propaganda anyway, and it doesn't only have to come from the state. Stop making up your own definitions please, it's not productive for discussion.

Many people aren't aware of the propaganda produced by the mass-media, by the way.  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

"the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person"

" ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect"

 

 




snyps on 10 March 2013

"Well when was the last time a modern country shot the shit out of it's own citizens?" "In 20 years from now 50% of US citizens will probably still own a firearm. Have fun being the president who pisses them off."  MAJOR 20th CENTURY GENOCIDES -- THE COST OF GUN-CONTROL http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/RKBA/genocide.html TOTAL VICTIMS: 55.9 MILLION



Mazty on 10 March 2013
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:

Why have the auditing public? Do you really think joe-average has what it takes to make the right decisions about his countries security?

Learn what collateral is. 

Oh right I forgot that the credit crunch is identical to the 30's recession....

Yes it does make a difference because you can choose to watch Republican/Democratic news stations or non-biased ones & are aware it's propoganda. True propoganda is indistinguishable from the truth. Go live in China or Russia if you really want to experience repression and propoganda because at the moment you're creating a threat where none exists.

"Joe-average" has the right to know how the decisions were made during the audition. 

You are assuming people are being helped in this case. I am assuming they are not. 

You said the economies weren't entangled, when they were in fact entangled to a large extent. It was the nationalism that occured after the great depression which disetangled them. 

Actually, my roommate is from China and he told me quite clearly that everybody knows the propaganda of the state is indeed farcical. That's not the definiton of propaganda anyway, and it doesn't only have to come from the state. Stop making up your own definitions please, it's not productive for discussion.

Many people aren't aware of the propaganda produced by the mass-media, by the way.  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

"the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person"

" ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect"

Why does he? Does he have the necessary education and experience to understand such things? And what about sensitive information e.g. how information was gathered? What "right" are you talking about anyway? The right to potentially endanger the country through paranoia?

Right so the government is actually filled with serial killers out for blood for the lulz. K.

Economies are entangled in such a way that if a company does something immoral, it's share prices will bomb therefore making your argument that they can do immoral things wrong. 

Your "mate from China" clearly has no idea what he's on about. Due to the size of China the education varies wildly and many do not know it's farcical. I knew one Chinese person who up until the age of 14 believed the Dali Larma was a terrorist who killed Chinese tourists as that was what he had been told in China. 

My point is that you have such much freedom of information in the US, if you are a victim of propoganda you are just a victim of willful ignorance. The education system in the US, which is available to all citizens, teaches you to question & not blindly accept (scientific method, the basis of modern science). I was talking about political propoganda because commercial propoganda is just fucking adverts and who cares about them?

Dude if you think the US government is going to kill innocents for lulz, you need to wake up and stop being so ungreatful. Take a look at Syria. Or Russia. Or any one of the truly terrible places in the world. If you can't be happy with your government in the US then you won't be happy with any. 





sc94597 on 10 March 2013
Mazty said:
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:

Why have the auditing public? Do you really think joe-average has what it takes to make the right decisions about his countries security?

Learn what collateral is. 

Oh right I forgot that the credit crunch is identical to the 30's recession....

Yes it does make a difference because you can choose to watch Republican/Democratic news stations or non-biased ones & are aware it's propoganda. True propoganda is indistinguishable from the truth. Go live in China or Russia if you really want to experience repression and propoganda because at the moment you're creating a threat where none exists.

"Joe-average" has the right to know how the decisions were made during the audition. 

You are assuming people are being helped in this case. I am assuming they are not. 

You said the economies weren't entangled, when they were in fact entangled to a large extent. It was the nationalism that occured after the great depression which disetangled them. 

Actually, my roommate is from China and he told me quite clearly that everybody knows the propaganda of the state is indeed farcical. That's not the definiton of propaganda anyway, and it doesn't only have to come from the state. Stop making up your own definitions please, it's not productive for discussion.

Many people aren't aware of the propaganda produced by the mass-media, by the way.  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

"the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person"

" ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect"

Why does he? Does he have the necessary education and experience to understand such things? And what about sensitive information e.g. how information was gathered? What "right" are you talking about anyway? The right to potentially endanger the country through paranoia?

By that logic, should we restrict voting to only those with the proper education? He has a right to know what the public officials he's paying for are doing. He gives money to them, hence he has the right to know how his money is being used. Unless taxes are indeed really just thievry? 

Right so the government is actually filled with serial killers out for blood for the lulz. K.

I'm quite sure the government is filled with all kinds of people. Some might be sociopaths, others might not be. I do know though that such a powerful entity attracts people hungry for power and how they might use that power is not always in the interests of the people, or in this case, mostly not always in the interests of the people. 

Economies are entangled in such a way that if a company does something immoral, it's share prices will bomb therefore making your argument that they can do immoral things wrong. 

Except no. Economies follow the rule of supply and demand, and demand is usually based on the quality of the product. 

Your "mate from China" clearly has no idea what he's on about. Due to the size of China the education varies wildly and many do not know it's farcical. I knew one Chinese person who up until the age of 14 believed the Dali Larma was a terrorist who killed Chinese tourists as that was what he had been told in China. 

And, vastly more people here believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So what? Propaganda exists, and to say that China is worse, so be grateful is a very disgusting and ridiculous mentality. It's like saying you have a B grade, no need to work for an A because Joe over there has a D.  

My point is that you have such much freedom of information in the US, if you are a victim of propoganda you are just a victim of willful ignorance. The education system in the US, which is available to all citizens, teaches you to question & not blindly accept (scientific method, the basis of modern science). I was talking about political propoganda because commercial propoganda is just fucking adverts and who cares about them?

Yes, and that's what we're doing here. Not putting blind faith in Big Brother. 

Dude if you think the US government is going to kill innocents for lulz, you need to wake up and stop being so ungreatful. Take a look at Syria. Or Russia. Or any one of the truly terrible places in the world. If you can't be happy with your government in the US then you won't be happy with any. 

I don't think they're going to "kill innocents for the lulz." They're going to kill innocents for the $$$. Again, it's annoying to hear, you're not as bad as X or Y, hence don't worry about it. If everybody in the world took that complacent mentality, the progress we've made never would have occured. If the founding fathers said to themselves: "we in America have the English consitution, while the Spanish colonies face a much greater tyranny than we do, hence we don't need to rebel against the unfair policies of the mercantile British Empire", where would liberalism and our "first world" nations be today? Nowhere. Actually, I'm sure the British would use the U.S the same way they used India, as a resource slave.  





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SamuelRSmith on 10 March 2013

Being that I live in Hong Kong, and speak to mainlanders on a daily basis, they all know that the Government spews propaganda. They don't always know what the actual truth is (who does?), but they know what's coming out of the papers is bullshit.

And if you think the Dalai Lama is a saint, odds are, you've been hit by a steady level of propaganda, also.



mai on 10 March 2013
SamuelRSmith said:
Being that I live in Hong Kong, and speak to mainlanders on a daily basis, they all know that the Government spews propaganda. They don't always know what the actual truth is (who does?), but they know what's coming out of the papers is bullshit.

And if you think the Dalai Lama is a saint, odds are, you've been hit by a steady level of propaganda, also.

Honk Kong'ians are very special case in China. They've been separated for too long to have negative stance on pretty much everything coming from Beijing, hence rallies against patriotic education last year.

//Speaking about press and how it functions, or Internet. It's very surprising how similar organizational and operational structures are, same "handlers" or "brigadiers", same "memos" or "lists". The fact you can choose from "different" source of information like Fox, CNN or Al-Jazeera won't help you here.



SamuelRSmith on 10 March 2013
mai said:

Honk Kong'ians are very special case in China. They've been separated for too long to have negative stance on pretty much everything coming from Beijing, hence rallies against patriotic education last year.

//Speaking about press and how it functions, or Internet. It's very surprising how similar organizational and operational structures are, same "handlers" or "brigadiers", same "memos" or "lists". The fact you can choose from "different" source of information like Fox, CNN or Al-Jazeera won't help you here.


Like I said, I speak to people from the mainland everyday. My girlfriend is from Shanghai, she said that fewer than half the people back home would fully believe a story relating to some kind of disaster (ie, a bridge collapsing), and pratically zero would believe anything related to the direct functions of the Government itself - ie, Government statistical data, stuff on corruption or party politics, that kind of guff.

 

EDIT: Talking of protests, I was down the seaside today (lovely day in HK), and there was an anti-communist party/HK independence protest. Third one I've seen since being here... on New Years Eve, they were waving British flags.



Mazty on 10 March 2013
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:
Why does he? Does he have the necessary education and experience to understand such things? And what about sensitive information e.g. how information was gathered? What "right" are you talking about anyway? The right to potentially endanger the country through paranoia?

By that logic, should we restrict voting to only those with the proper education? He has a right to know what the public officials he's paying for are doing. He gives money to them, hence he has the right to know how his money is being used. Unless taxes are indeed really just thievry? 

Right so the government is actually filled with serial killers out for blood for the lulz. K.

I'm quite sure the government is filled with all kinds of people. Some might be sociopaths, others might not be. I do know though that such a powerful entity attracts people hungry for power and how they might use that power is not always in the interests of the people, or in this case, mostly not always in the interests of the people. 

Economies are entangled in such a way that if a company does something immoral, it's share prices will bomb therefore making your argument that they can do immoral things wrong. 

Except no. Economies follow the rule of supply and demand, and demand is usually based on the quality of the product. 

Your "mate from China" clearly has no idea what he's on about. Due to the size of China the education varies wildly and many do not know it's farcical. I knew one Chinese person who up until the age of 14 believed the Dali Larma was a terrorist who killed Chinese tourists as that was what he had been told in China. 

And, vastly more people here believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So what? Propaganda exists, and to say that China is worse, so be grateful is a very disgusting and ridiculous mentality. It's like saying you have a B grade, no need to work for an A because Joe over there has a D.  

My point is that you have such much freedom of information in the US, if you are a victim of propoganda you are just a victim of willful ignorance. The education system in the US, which is available to all citizens, teaches you to question & not blindly accept (scientific method, the basis of modern science). I was talking about political propoganda because commercial propoganda is just fucking adverts and who cares about them?

Yes, and that's what we're doing here. Not putting blind faith in Big Brother. 

Dude if you think the US government is going to kill innocents for lulz, you need to wake up and stop being so ungreatful. Take a look at Syria. Or Russia. Or any one of the truly terrible places in the world. If you can't be happy with your government in the US then you won't be happy with any. 

I don't think they're going to "kill innocents for the lulz." They're going to kill innocents for the $$$. Again, it's annoying to hear, you're not as bad as X or Y, hence don't worry about it. If everybody in the world took that complacent mentality, the progress we've made never would have occured. If the founding fathers said to themselves: "we in America have the English consitution, while the Spanish colonies face a much greater tyranny than we do, hence we don't need to rebel against the unfair policies of the mercantile British Empire", where would liberalism and our "first world" nations be today? Nowhere. Actually, I'm sure the British would use the U.S the same way they used India, as a resource slave.  

 

1)Yep. Makes sense doesn't it to only allow the economically, morally and politically educated to vote otherwise we are going against the system of logic we teach in the education system. Also why do you need detailed knowledge of what is going on? You simply don't; paranoia isn't a reason.

2)Yeah thats just paranoia with no basis in reality for the current US government.

3)Obviouly you did not see what happened when starbucks failed to pay tax in the UK? Revenue bombed, and therefore they ended up paying tax. Demand goes down if people don't agree with the ethics of a company.

4)Propoganda in the US is not from the government but from corporations and is merely the exercise of freedom of speech as you have access to the truth if you want it. Are you saying we should remove the freedom of speech because someones praise for something could be interpreted as propoganda by someone else?

5)No you are being paranoid. You do not have the ability to access what a good judgement call is in terms of terrorism but still insist on seeing the information. That's ridiculous - do you ask for a lengthy essay when a doctor diagnosises you?

Right killing some kid obviously means money. You only have wild paranoid speculation that that is the case. You are simply being paranoid and ungreatful. 



sc94597 on 10 March 2013
Mazty said:
sc94597 said:
Mazty said:
Why does he? Does he have the necessary education and experience to understand such things? And what about sensitive information e.g. how information was gathered? What "right" are you talking about anyway? The right to potentially endanger the country through paranoia?

By that logic, should we restrict voting to only those with the proper education? He has a right to know what the public officials he's paying for are doing. He gives money to them, hence he has the right to know how his money is being used. Unless taxes are indeed really just thievry? 

Right so the government is actually filled with serial killers out for blood for the lulz. K.

I'm quite sure the government is filled with all kinds of people. Some might be sociopaths, others might not be. I do know though that such a powerful entity attracts people hungry for power and how they might use that power is not always in the interests of the people, or in this case, mostly not always in the interests of the people. 

Economies are entangled in such a way that if a company does something immoral, it's share prices will bomb therefore making your argument that they can do immoral things wrong. 

Except no. Economies follow the rule of supply and demand, and demand is usually based on the quality of the product. 

Your "mate from China" clearly has no idea what he's on about. Due to the size of China the education varies wildly and many do not know it's farcical. I knew one Chinese person who up until the age of 14 believed the Dali Larma was a terrorist who killed Chinese tourists as that was what he had been told in China. 

And, vastly more people here believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So what? Propaganda exists, and to say that China is worse, so be grateful is a very disgusting and ridiculous mentality. It's like saying you have a B grade, no need to work for an A because Joe over there has a D.  

My point is that you have such much freedom of information in the US, if you are a victim of propoganda you are just a victim of willful ignorance. The education system in the US, which is available to all citizens, teaches you to question & not blindly accept (scientific method, the basis of modern science). I was talking about political propoganda because commercial propoganda is just fucking adverts and who cares about them?

Yes, and that's what we're doing here. Not putting blind faith in Big Brother. 

Dude if you think the US government is going to kill innocents for lulz, you need to wake up and stop being so ungreatful. Take a look at Syria. Or Russia. Or any one of the truly terrible places in the world. If you can't be happy with your government in the US then you won't be happy with any. 

I don't think they're going to "kill innocents for the lulz." They're going to kill innocents for the $$$. Again, it's annoying to hear, you're not as bad as X or Y, hence don't worry about it. If everybody in the world took that complacent mentality, the progress we've made never would have occured. If the founding fathers said to themselves: "we in America have the English consitution, while the Spanish colonies face a much greater tyranny than we do, hence we don't need to rebel against the unfair policies of the mercantile British Empire", where would liberalism and our "first world" nations be today? Nowhere. Actually, I'm sure the British would use the U.S the same way they used India, as a resource slave.  

 

1)Yep. Makes sense doesn't it to only allow the economically, morally and politically educated to vote otherwise we are going against the system of logic we teach in the education system. Also why do you need detailed knowledge of what is going on? You simply don't; paranoia isn't a reason.

2)Yeah thats just paranoia with no basis in reality for the current US government.

3)Obviouly you did not see what happened when starbucks failed to pay tax in the UK? Revenue bombed, and therefore they ended up paying tax. Demand goes down if people don't agree with the ethics of a company.

4)Propoganda in the US is not from the government but from corporations and is merely the exercise of freedom of speech as you have access to the truth if you want it. Are you saying we should remove the freedom of speech because someones praise for something could be interpreted as propoganda by someone else?

5)No you are being paranoid. You do not have the ability to access what a good judgement call is in terms of terrorism but still insist on seeing the information. That's ridiculous - do you ask for a lengthy essay when a doctor diagnosises you?

Right killing some kid obviously means money. You only have wild paranoid speculation that that is the case. You are simply being paranoid and ungreatful. 

1. Paying taxes is a reason. I have a right to tell them how to use my money, regardless of how stupid or immoral I might be. Although the alternative is not giving my money to some third party and I like that one!

2. Because you know so much about the U.S government and the people in it. 

3. How is chick-file (anti gay) and walmart (sweatshops overseas) doing? 

4. We don't have easy access to the truth though. And no, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that the reason why corrupt people are in government is beacuse of media propaganda by corprorations, to substantiate the claim that corporations own the government. Since corporations own the government, there is a problem, which we must fix. My solution is smaller government with less power, and hence less incentive for corporations to use it to hurt people. 

5. I want to see a report, yes. I know plenty of people who are the same. It's called being informed and educated. 

You understand not a single thing about how the U.S government, its history, and how it works and the accepted principles that both left-wingers and right-wingers accept as truth. But apparently I should worship the federal state at an altar because all the freedoms and liberty weren't because of Americans of yesterday restricting government, lol, but because of government itself (according to you) lol.