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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo and 3rd parties *Formerly; Nintendo is f*cking up big times with 3rd parties*

ghettoglamour said:
@DanneSandin

How are you supposed to know that insider info? I'm just curious.

I have been talking with a 3rd party developer with insight to things.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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Aielyn said:
DanneSandin said:
Y u write so much? =(

I used those terms because I was excited about what we will see! I never thought about how those choices could hurt my credibility :P And while not a single one is too far fetched, but together they add up to a pretty unlikely scenario. And since I only have my source to go by I can't say that 100% of these will come true, and I have since learned that some of these titles might be shown at tgs and not e3 as I first thought.

I'm really not all that good at giving hints and nods... When that Wii U exclusive title is announced I will say something; I think there should be enough hints in here to add up. And I don't know any dates or anything. I wish I could spell it out SOMEWHERE, but my source has said no. How do you suggest that I hint these things?

I don't know how he knows all of this, but I figure that they're working pretty closely with SOny and needs to co-ordinate the releases or something.

what happened was early on a very large publisher got their mitts on source code to a 1st party title accidentally (was meant to be sent a code segment on disk for assistance with a gpu addressing issue, but ended up with whole game source), and in the source for that, it became obvious that 3rd party sdks lacked vital and very helpful api's for graphics rendering, and the 'nintendo space' banned from use for 3rd party devs was being used without reservation - so basically 3rd party devs other than the one that found this got wind, and we've all basically said 'fix this shit or we go elsewhere', nintendo then issued an sdk update that added SOME of the api's for gpu processing but the memory restriction still in place - just with the commented code saying nintendo space changed to 'system reserved' - essentially nintendo got caught with its pants down blatently gimping 3rd party titles, then scrambled to fix it by letting some of the 1st part sdk features through a few months early, but all that did was piss devs off more, because it still shows that nintendo aren't playing fair and fucking 3rd party devs over.

But you see, that's just it - if you had said "all of these will be at E3", and hadn't described it as a prediction, I might have said it was unlikely enough to make it into the "could be proof" realm (although the other issues would still remain).

Like I said, something that might be convincing is a specific hint - something that is clearly and obviously accurate if it does show up, but which is completely cryptic now. For instance, suppose that you'd known ahead of time about the second Wii Zelda adventure. You might have said something along the lines of "a classic franchise will be heading skyward". Now, there's really no way, before hearing of Skyward Sword, to know that this is what is being referred to, but once it's announced, it's absolutely clear that it's what you were referring to. It doesn't give away anything ahead of time, but it demonstrates after announcement that you knew about it, because "skyward" is an unlikely word to show up in a game title.

But I dno't know anything about the names of the games being made, so those kind of hints is REALLY hard to make... Head over to my PS4 prediction thread and check out my predictions; I tried being cryptic, but... Well... I've some good guesses and some not as good ^^ But I think that reading this thread AND the PS4 thread the hints should add up...

On the flipside, going "a franchise from the PS1 era will make a return" is entirely generic - it coming true doesn't prove a thing, because anybody could guess that part, and if it doesn't explicitly come true, it could be easily hand-waved away using arguments like "Oh, I was referring to XYZ, which originated in the PS1 era and hasn't been seen for a few years". Kind of like how most horoscopes work - I just called up Aquarius on a horoscope site, and it says for today "He or she may see what you don't want to see". Not exactly an iron-clad prediction, that. The fact that you also don't know how your source knows these things is also a bit of a warning light, I must say.

I wish you could have told me all of this BEFORE I made that thread :P I think it's too late to change the hints now... I'm coming to think of a couple of hints now... damnit!

And coming back to the actual claim again, like I said, there's the problem of WHY Nintendo would do it. What possible benefit would Nintendo have for doing such a thing in the first place, when they've clearly been working so hard to address the third party issue over the last few years? It would be like Nintendo intentionally sabotaging their own efforts. A far more likely scenario is that the rumour of this thing happening originated from someone who has a stake in Sony (or maybe Microsoft), and isn't actually true. If it were true, there'd be at least one instance of it being leaked to the media already - it's way too big a deal for you to be the first to find out about it.

I don't know what's in it for Nintendo by doing this, and I don't know why it hasn't been leaked. That's why I'm trying to let this thread just... fade away... I'm trying to not reply to everybody writing here anymore.





I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

I wouldn´t make any assumptions based on the opinion of a single developer.

As much hate as some people have towards Nintendo, it´s clear that a few developers like Ubisoft, Disney Interactive and 505 Games made a lot of money from their Wii games.

I doubt that Nintendo is so short-sighted about giving 3rd parties support, maybe that was the case a decade ago, but they surely learn their lesson with the Gamecube. In fact, today many 3rd party developers just don´t want the extra job to create features in their games suitable to Nintendo consoles, be it the 3ds or the WiiU. It´s just easier to make similar games to PS3/Xbox360/Vita, no need to use touch-screen or several motion controls options. These features alone would require not only more time for programming but also for testing, then increasing, still only slighty, the cost of production.

Producing a game for a Nintendo console is a different job. Like the developers at Ubisoft right now are claiming that "they don´t know what to do" with the GamePad for WatchDogs. The game was been produced with PS/Xbox in mind, making the game for the GamePad is a tottally different approach, taking this approach may not cover the costs of it, after all the install base is still little and it won´t grow fast at least until Nintendo big games come.

We should also consider all the partnerships that Nintendo has been developing for the Wiiu, also. Platinum games projects like Bayonetta 2 and Wonderful 101 would never see the light of the day. Monolith, Retro, Mistwalker, Level-5 and a number of indie developers are other studios that are taking advantages from that partnership also.

After all, this is a big market bloated with developers everywhere and it will be impossible for Nintendo to please all of them, simply because only a few developers think like them: gameplay as the basics, visuals after. The dev who just care about visuals and cinematics will go for Xbox/PS, the devs who needs or wants to be creative will give Nintendo consoles a go.






Barbarossa said:
fordy said:
Barbarossa said:

Battle.net maybe? With blizzard supporting it not impossible I guess and you also said they kind of mentioned it already. Oh, does this mean WoW on PS4?

fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







 

He doesn't have to have that since he's a developer... What he's told me is that 3rd parties is sick and tired of the way Nintendo is acting; I don't know if he represents the whole industry...



Developers don't make the decisions, the executives do. If he doesn't have to have much business sense, then he also shouldn't be speaking for EXECUTIVE business decisions. How is this, therefore, a "trustworthy source"?


I'm calling BS on this. It lacks common sense and defies any kind of business logic.



I couldn't agree more, and that's why I said that Nintendo is fucking up big times.




Nintendo is fucking up because your agument is illogical? No, they've been doing so long before that.


 


Let me give you an example of this. I'm an executive, and I call for a game to be developed for the Wii. Now, as an executive, how do you think I'd react if my developers came back and said "We refuse to develop for the Wii because we're not entitled to the same memory allocation as Nintendo"? Keep in mind that the executive doesn't give two shits about technicalities, they're in charge of financial and overall business decisions.


A working example of this was Square moving from Nintendo exlcusitivity. It wasn't done on a TECHNICAL sense. It was done on a FINANCIAL sense. In fact, look up some youtube videos on the history of Squaresoft, and the workers at the time explained how executives came in one day and just told the team "We're going with PlayStation now". It wasn't the devs making this decision, they just did what they were told. A lot of devs were excited, and a lot of devs were disappointed by the decision, but they still had to follow executive orders.


I think Square abandoned Nintendo because of the lack of a cd-rom. They just thought it was the future, turns out they were right. A mistake Nintendo still haven't recovered from.

 


If cartridges costed the same per MB as CDs, do you think that Square would have moved? 

Once again, the technical details didn't bother them. After all, originally they weren't phased by it since they made a demo of FF7 for the N64. It was when they made a massive game that was going to be incredibly expensive to fit on cartridge that they decided to take the cheaper option of CDs. This has been mentioned many times by Square staff in interviews. Once again, purely financial decision. They didn't do it just because "CDs are the future".

Yes, I think they would have moved anyway because the game they wanted to make would not have fit on a cartridge.

FF7= 3 CD-roms, total game size roughly 1.8 GB according to Sony. N64 cartridge=64MB

http://xenon.stanford.edu/~geksiong/papers/sts145/Squaresoft%20and%20FF7.htm

This article features some interesting tidbits of what happened. Presumably Enix's Dragon Quest left Nintendo for the same reason.

Of course, there was a financial aspect as well, plus Nintendos relationship with Square seemed somewhat infectious at the time. In this case, though, I believe the technical limitations was the main reason for the split because it inhibited their artistic vision for the game.


Once again, if the PRICE PER MB of cartridge ROM matched CDs, what would be the point of moving?

The number you quoted is ADRESSABLE cartridge space. Look up memory mappers to see how the NES bypassed it's 32KB space limit.

As Yamauchi said, they could fit ANY size game on a cart, and he was right...to an extent. The only thing holding them back WAS cost.



RolStoppable said:
DanneSandin said:

1) Seems logical enough.. And 3rd parties would rather see Nintendo go so that they don't have to compete against Nintendo's 1st party line up? But what would happen if they went 3rd party then? They'd be EVERYWHERE!

2) I underlined something I think makes a lot of sense! And that's why Just Dance is a much bigger franchise than Gears ^^ imo at least. So, do you think it would make sense for 3rd parties to make multiplats for PS360/720 and make exclusive games for Wii U that takes advantage of the HW?

3) I guess this ties in with the point made above; games taking advantage of the HW will perform better and boost 1st and 3rd party games. Or, would you say that I am wrong in that assumption?

4) Seriously Rol, what's up with the wall of text? It took me like 2 days to read it all ^^ better late than never I guess

1) When Sega went third party after dominating their own platforms' sales, they were everywhere too. But nobody considers third party Sega to be as strong as first party Sega. Not even close. It's not hard to imagine that Nintendo would be weakened as well after having to scale back their operations in order to survive as a company.

2) Games that take advantage of any given hardware pretty much always resonate better with the audience, because they convey the message that the developer was serious about making a good game. Games don't have to be exclusive to accomplish this and nowadays it's unreasonable to expect exclusive third party games on home consoles. This goes doubly so for the Wii U, because its sales levels are atrocious.

3) Your assumption is correct. Quality games spur sales of other games, because consumers are satisfied and usually want more whereas bad games might put off consumers from buying video games altogether.

4) I try to keep my posts as short as possible, it's just that certain subjects require several paragraphs to form a coherent argument and address possible questions in advance.

1) But doesn't Nintendo have stronger IP's than Sega? Just imagine how LBP would be effected if a 2D Mario was to hit Playstation... Who would play LBP?! But then again, tying in with point 3; good games sell more good games, so maybe they'd thrive? And the same logic could then be applied to Zelda and Fable and other franchises... Now that I come to think about it (and this is merely a thought, I haven't looked this up) it would seem that MS/Sony has more 1st party games aching to those of Nintendo than what 3rd parties have...

2) No further comments.

3) Oki doki =)

4) haha I was just joking with you! While you tend to post looong posts, they're often very enlightening! But I much rather read them as replies to someone else than me ^^



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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RolStoppable said:
DanneSandin said:
Cobretti2 said:

which brings us back full circle to my first post in this quote tree.

If it hasn't been annouced what proof have we got that it started out on Wii U and moved somewhere else.

I could as easily say this, Then wait for E3, then find the first Japanese game that isn't heading to Wii U and CLAIM it was a Wii U exclusive.

I'm backing up ALL my claims (how Nintendo is treating 3rd parties shitty and the cancelled games) with that I know what will happen at e3 during Sonys presentation, but since I can't tell you what games will be announcened I will simply tell you that there will be megatons at this years e3. We will see and old friend return to playstation, we will get a remake that will blow people away and we will see a former exclusive xbox title cause meltdowns, AND PS4 will get a BIG online service that no one has seen coming. If at least half of these predictions come true it should prove that I know a thing or two of what is going on within the industry, and thus prove that I know what I'm alking about in the OP.

I will now claim two things: Cobretti2 lives in Australia. DanneSandin has sex with sheep.

If only one of these things can be proven to be true, then the other is true as well.

hahahahaha 



RolStoppable said:
DanneSandin said:

1) But doesn't Nintendo have stronger IP's than Sega? Just imagine how LBP would be effected if a 2D Mario was to hit Playstation... Who would play LBP?! But then again, tying in with point 3; good games sell more good games, so maybe they'd thrive? And the same logic could then be applied to Zelda and Fable and other franchises... Now that I come to think about it (and this is merely a thought, I haven't looked this up) it would seem that MS/Sony has more 1st party games aching to those of Nintendo than what 3rd parties have...

2) No further comments.

3) Oki doki =)

4) haha I was just joking with you! While you tend to post looong posts, they're often very enlightening! But I much rather read them as replies to someone else than me ^^

Yes, Nintendo has stronger IPs than Sega, but most of them aren't similar to third party games. Additionally, third parties couldn't care less, if LBP sold less. Lastly, much of Nintendo's success is attributed to them making their own hardware. With this advantage being removed, as well as Nintendo being crippled from being forced out of the hardware business, Nintendo should be nowhere near as strong as they are today anymore.

I agree with about everything you said here.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

richardhutnik said:
Conegamer said:
Turkish said:
Just look at the reactions of 3rd parties, they're all very happy with PS4s 8GB GDDR5 ram, ram was one of the biggest bottlenecks current gen. Nintendo just let them down.

Gamecube was a beast console, in return it got many multiplats.

As I recall at E3 2011 (or even 2012?), Nintendo said that they designed the console with 3rd parties in mind, and as such there was nothing but praise for the system. Who knows what happened to cause such a change.

Assuming that Microsoft's console also ends up with 8 GB of RAM, that is what happened to it.   With both of them having that much RAM, third-party codes to that and won't bother with Nintendo's offering.  This change makes a difference.

Ram will not have as much an effect on what games go where tbh, it's all down to the combined performance of the GPU and CPU all ram will do is just ensure the draw distance and which versions will have pop up the amount of ram doesn't significantly improve power over another platform.



fordy said:
Barbarossa said:
fordy said:
Barbarossa said:

Battle.net maybe? With blizzard supporting it not impossible I guess and you also said they kind of mentioned it already. Oh, does this mean WoW on PS4?

fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







 

He doesn't have to have that since he's a developer... What he's told me is that 3rd parties is sick and tired of the way Nintendo is acting; I don't know if he represents the whole industry...



Developers don't make the decisions, the executives do. If he doesn't have to have much business sense, then he also shouldn't be speaking for EXECUTIVE business decisions. How is this, therefore, a "trustworthy source"?


I'm calling BS on this. It lacks common sense and defies any kind of business logic.



I couldn't agree more, and that's why I said that Nintendo is fucking up big times.




Nintendo is fucking up because your agument is illogical? No, they've been doing so long before that.


 


Let me give you an example of this. I'm an executive, and I call for a game to be developed for the Wii. Now, as an executive, how do you think I'd react if my developers came back and said "We refuse to develop for the Wii because we're not entitled to the same memory allocation as Nintendo"? Keep in mind that the executive doesn't give two shits about technicalities, they're in charge of financial and overall business decisions.


A working example of this was Square moving from Nintendo exlcusitivity. It wasn't done on a TECHNICAL sense. It was done on a FINANCIAL sense. In fact, look up some youtube videos on the history of Squaresoft, and the workers at the time explained how executives came in one day and just told the team "We're going with PlayStation now". It wasn't the devs making this decision, they just did what they were told. A lot of devs were excited, and a lot of devs were disappointed by the decision, but they still had to follow executive orders.


I think Square abandoned Nintendo because of the lack of a cd-rom. They just thought it was the future, turns out they were right. A mistake Nintendo still haven't recovered from.

 


If cartridges costed the same per MB as CDs, do you think that Square would have moved? 

Once again, the technical details didn't bother them. After all, originally they weren't phased by it since they made a demo of FF7 for the N64. It was when they made a massive game that was going to be incredibly expensive to fit on cartridge that they decided to take the cheaper option of CDs. This has been mentioned many times by Square staff in interviews. Once again, purely financial decision. They didn't do it just because "CDs are the future".

Yes, I think they would have moved anyway because the game they wanted to make would not have fit on a cartridge.

FF7= 3 CD-roms, total game size roughly 1.8 GB according to Sony. N64 cartridge=64MB

http://xenon.stanford.edu/~geksiong/papers/sts145/Squaresoft%20and%20FF7.htm

This article features some interesting tidbits of what happened. Presumably Enix's Dragon Quest left Nintendo for the same reason.

Of course, there was a financial aspect as well, plus Nintendos relationship with Square seemed somewhat infectious at the time. In this case, though, I believe the technical limitations was the main reason for the split because it inhibited their artistic vision for the game.


Once again, if the PRICE PER MB of cartridge ROM matched CDs, what would be the point of moving?

The number you quoted is ADRESSABLE cartridge space. Look up memory mappers to see how the NES bypassed it's 32KB space limit.

As Yamauchi said, they could fit ANY size game on a cart, and he was right...to an extent. The only thing holding them back WAS cost.

Actually, I'm going to admit you're theoretically right since it could've been possible to change carts. 1.8 GB on 64 MB carts means about 30 cartridges. So, yes, in that sense you are correct. However, if the N64 would have had a CD-ROM they probably would have released it on that platform, which again, makes it a technical question. N64 with CD-ROM=FF7 (possibly), N64 without CD-ROM=no FF7 (fact).

Here are some quotes to ponder in the meantime.

Yoshinori Kitase (director of FF7):

"But as our goal was to develop the next-generation RPG we came to the conclusion that only a high capacity mass storage media would facilitate what we wanted to achieve. This meant CD was the only option and so from that perspective, PlayStation was the only choice."

http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-final-fantasy-vii/

Hironobu Sakaguchi:

"As a result of using a lot of motion data + CG effects and in still images, it turned out to be a mega capacity game, and therefore we had to choose CD-ROM as our media"

http://www.lostlevels.org/200510/



Barbarossa said:
fordy said:
Barbarossa said:
fordy said:
Barbarossa said:

Battle.net maybe? With blizzard supporting it not impossible I guess and you also said they kind of mentioned it already. Oh, does this mean WoW on PS4?

fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







fordy said:







DanneSandin said:







 

He doesn't have to have that since he's a developer... What he's told me is that 3rd parties is sick and tired of the way Nintendo is acting; I don't know if he represents the whole industry...



Developers don't make the decisions, the executives do. If he doesn't have to have much business sense, then he also shouldn't be speaking for EXECUTIVE business decisions. How is this, therefore, a "trustworthy source"?


I'm calling BS on this. It lacks common sense and defies any kind of business logic.



I couldn't agree more, and that's why I said that Nintendo is fucking up big times.




Nintendo is fucking up because your agument is illogical? No, they've been doing so long before that.


 


Let me give you an example of this. I'm an executive, and I call for a game to be developed for the Wii. Now, as an executive, how do you think I'd react if my developers came back and said "We refuse to develop for the Wii because we're not entitled to the same memory allocation as Nintendo"? Keep in mind that the executive doesn't give two shits about technicalities, they're in charge of financial and overall business decisions.


A working example of this was Square moving from Nintendo exlcusitivity. It wasn't done on a TECHNICAL sense. It was done on a FINANCIAL sense. In fact, look up some youtube videos on the history of Squaresoft, and the workers at the time explained how executives came in one day and just told the team "We're going with PlayStation now". It wasn't the devs making this decision, they just did what they were told. A lot of devs were excited, and a lot of devs were disappointed by the decision, but they still had to follow executive orders.


I think Square abandoned Nintendo because of the lack of a cd-rom. They just thought it was the future, turns out they were right. A mistake Nintendo still haven't recovered from.

 


If cartridges costed the same per MB as CDs, do you think that Square would have moved? 

Once again, the technical details didn't bother them. After all, originally they weren't phased by it since they made a demo of FF7 for the N64. It was when they made a massive game that was going to be incredibly expensive to fit on cartridge that they decided to take the cheaper option of CDs. This has been mentioned many times by Square staff in interviews. Once again, purely financial decision. They didn't do it just because "CDs are the future".

Yes, I think they would have moved anyway because the game they wanted to make would not have fit on a cartridge.

FF7= 3 CD-roms, total game size roughly 1.8 GB according to Sony. N64 cartridge=64MB

http://xenon.stanford.edu/~geksiong/papers/sts145/Squaresoft%20and%20FF7.htm

This article features some interesting tidbits of what happened. Presumably Enix's Dragon Quest left Nintendo for the same reason.

Of course, there was a financial aspect as well, plus Nintendos relationship with Square seemed somewhat infectious at the time. In this case, though, I believe the technical limitations was the main reason for the split because it inhibited their artistic vision for the game.


Once again, if the PRICE PER MB of cartridge ROM matched CDs, what would be the point of moving?

The number you quoted is ADRESSABLE cartridge space. Look up memory mappers to see how the NES bypassed it's 32KB space limit.

As Yamauchi said, they could fit ANY size game on a cart, and he was right...to an extent. The only thing holding them back WAS cost.

Actually, I'm going to admit you're theoretically right since it could've been possible to change carts. 1.8 GB on 64 MB carts means about 30 cartridges. So, yes, in that sense you are correct. However, if the N64 would have had a CD-ROM they probably would have released it on that platform, which again, makes it a technical question. N64 with CD-ROM=FF7 (possibly), N64 without CD-ROM=no FF7 (fact).

Here are some quotes to ponder in the meantime.

Yoshinori Kitase (director of FF7):

"But as our goal was to develop the next-generation RPG we came to the conclusion that only a high capacity mass storage media would facilitate what we wanted to achieve. This meant CD was the only option and so from that perspective, PlayStation was the only choice."

http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-final-fantasy-vii/

Hironobu Sakaguchi:

"As a result of using a lot of motion data + CG effects and in still images, it turned out to be a mega capacity game, and therefore we had to choose CD-ROM as our media"

http://www.lostlevels.org/200510/


For gods sake, look up  memory mapping. The game didn't need x number of cartridges, it could have worked on one cartridge if paging was incorporated. Once again, Square mentioned that they made a game too big that couldn't fit (it could, except they'd be looking in the realm of $400 manufacturing or so in manufacturing costs to put it onto ROM. Once again, if the price per MB for ROM was the same as CD, it WOULD have been on the N64, on a SINGLE cartridge, since the only thing that CDs offer over ROM is cheap $/MB, nothing more...