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Forums - General - Why try to disprove/disagree with religion?

timmah on 24 January 2013
Fayceless said:
Runa216 said:

LAdies and gentlemen: This thread and the nonsense being spewed in the name of god (we have a right to believe! you're persecuting us for challenging our faith!) is why I feel the need to disprove or disagree with religion.

That is all. 


You are creating and inflating conflict in your own mind.  You seek, knowingly or not, to stir up trouble, and you succeed.  You view this success as proof that you need to attack religion more.  You latch on to a few select arguments that bother you, focus exclusively on these (internally exaggerated) points, and disregard sound, productive debate.

 

What's the point?

 

Argue for rationality.  Argue for acceptance and open-mindedness.  Don't argue against a religion itself.  That is always a losing argument.  You hold yourself, and everyone else, back when you try to fight faith.  Fight for logic, reason, acceptance, and tolerance.

Very well said.



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timmah on 24 January 2013
Runa216 said:
timmah said:

I'm fully aware of how ridiculous that sounds to an atheist. I find it ridiculous how you feel the need to obstinantly attack views that don't line up with yours. I find it ridiculous that you completely write off any possibility of something existing beyond what humanity's extremely limited senses, mental capacity, and observations can prove. Even Abert Einstein (whom you like to quote) believed in some form of God, albeit not a personal God, and I'm sure he would have been much more open-minded and tolerant in his methods of communication in the subject.

who's putting words in who's mouth now?  

I never said "there is no god".  there might be, WE can never know, but there's no evidence supporting an existence of a god (and no, 'there might be, we can't disprove god' is not evidence), and therefore believing in god is irrational.  I don't have a problem with spirituality, I ahve a problem with religion becuase religion does a lot of nasty shit to the nonbelievers (and other believers who don't believe the exact same thing).  

And I'd be more tolerant and openminded if I hadn't had to deal with the bullshit the church spews for a quarter decade, only to be insulted by the masses when I bring up how hilariously illogical and irrational religion is.  And I get angry about it and lose my cool becuase I'm apparently not allowed to tell you you're all mentally insane, even though most psychological science would come to that conclusion if your imaginary friend wasn't named God or Yaweh or Jehovah or allah. 

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, that just seemed like a natural conclusion based on your attacks.

Acknowledging the possibility of the existence of God, then attacking people who believe a God exists is a little curious. Note I'm referring to attacking, not debating. If you say there might be a God, and you have no way to prove he doesn't exist (in the same way I cannot prove he does), why attack people who have come to a different conclusion than you? If you honestly say there 'might' be a God, why be so hostile? You have these straw men that clearly only apply to the wacko fringes, but you use that to impune all religion, and all people of faith. Why not argue that, even though you're an atheist, if there is a God, he wouldn't want voilence carried out in his name?

I feel just as passionately as you about the misuse of religion, I think that aspect of it is blight on the human existence. I also think humanity would find other reasons to kill each other regardless of religion, so the issue is not the tool that is used as an excuse, but the person or group commiting the atrocity.



the2real4mafol on 24 January 2013
timmah said:
the2real4mafol said:

I personally just don't see the point in any religion. It just seems no matter what there books say, all religions are used as an excuse for hatred and bloodshed, especially when governments start to get over run by religious nutcases who base their policies on their beliefs rather than what benefits the whole nation. Just look at the numerous religious wars in Europe that have occurred over the last 300 to 1000 years, was all that necessary? If there was a god, surely he didn't want those wars to happen, the bible wanted peace right? 

I agree with you on that point, though without religion, do we really think they wouldn't have found another excuse? The Chinese government does a lot of awful things and they are completely non religious. Maybe the problem isn't the misused tool, but the holder of the tool?

Yeah i don't doubt that religion wanted any conflict at all, but government clearly use to get what they want. Without religion, the political ideology of the day is used to get what government wants, just look at the USSR or North Korea



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timmah on 24 January 2013
the2real4mafol said:
timmah said:
the2real4mafol said:

I personally just don't see the point in any religion. It just seems no matter what there books say, all religions are used as an excuse for hatred and bloodshed, especially when governments start to get over run by religious nutcases who base their policies on their beliefs rather than what benefits the whole nation. Just look at the numerous religious wars in Europe that have occurred over the last 300 to 1000 years, was all that necessary? If there was a god, surely he didn't want those wars to happen, the bible wanted peace right? 

I agree with you on that point, though without religion, do we really think they wouldn't have found another excuse? The Chinese government does a lot of awful things and they are completely non religious. Maybe the problem isn't the misused tool, but the holder of the tool?

Yeah i don't doubt that religion wanted any conflict at all, but government clearly use to get what they want. Without religion, the political ideology of the day is used to get what government wants, just look at the USSR or North Korea

Yep, not to mention racism, nationalism, or any other 'ism' that can convince people they are superior to another group. Humans are a messed up bunch... you only need to turn on the news for about 30 seconds to know that.



dsgrue3 on 24 January 2013
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
Runa216 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
You say they made him up, I say He revealed himself to specific individuals Hknew had a good heart. Self hypnosis? Really? C'mon, that's not even close to what I'm talking about. Why do some atheists have to be so blatently militant about their beliefs?

If I knew everything about how and why God works, I would write a book about it and become rich.

Yep and the mental ward patients didn't make up their imaginary friend, the friend revealed him/herself to them. I hope you know how ridiculous you sound right now.

Only ridiculous if you don't belive God exists. We're speaking from two completely different worldviews here.

Confirmed:  Timmah doesn't know how ridiculous he sounds right now. 

I'm fully aware of how ridiculous that sounds to an atheist. I find it ridiculous how you feel the need to obstinantly attack views that don't line up with yours. I find it ridiculous that you completely write off any possibility of something existing beyond what humanity's extremely limited senses, mental capacity, and observations can prove. Even Abert Einstein (whom you like to quote) believed in some form of God, albeit not a personal God, and I'm sure he would have been much more open-minded and tolerant in his methods of communication in the subject.

Sounds ridiculous to anyone with a penchant for rational thought...

Einstein was agnostic rationally, but quite the atheist on a spiritual level.

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.

I've seen many atheists quote Einstein like their own bible, so...

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source…They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres.”~ The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214

“In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is they quote me for support of such views”~ The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214

Your Einstein quotations have no bearing upon his atheism...

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source…They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres.

This is addressing intolerance..."fanatical atheist". Einstein was tolerant of everyone, but he certainly did not share their views...

“In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is they quote me for support of such views

academically, as I already said, he's an agnostic, because you cannot logically conclude anything from the null hypothesis that is God.



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timmah on 24 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
Runa216 said:
timmah said:
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:
You say they made him up, I say He revealed himself to specific individuals Hknew had a good heart. Self hypnosis? Really? C'mon, that's not even close to what I'm talking about. Why do some atheists have to be so blatently militant about their beliefs?

If I knew everything about how and why God works, I would write a book about it and become rich.

Yep and the mental ward patients didn't make up their imaginary friend, the friend revealed him/herself to them. I hope you know how ridiculous you sound right now.

Only ridiculous if you don't belive God exists. We're speaking from two completely different worldviews here.

Confirmed:  Timmah doesn't know how ridiculous he sounds right now. 

I'm fully aware of how ridiculous that sounds to an atheist. I find it ridiculous how you feel the need to obstinantly attack views that don't line up with yours. I find it ridiculous that you completely write off any possibility of something existing beyond what humanity's extremely limited senses, mental capacity, and observations can prove. Even Abert Einstein (whom you like to quote) believed in some form of God, albeit not a personal God, and I'm sure he would have been much more open-minded and tolerant in his methods of communication in the subject.

Sounds ridiculous to anyone with a penchant for rational thought...

Einstein was agnostic rationally, but quite the atheist on a spiritual level.

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.

I've seen many atheists quote Einstein like their own bible, so...

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source…They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres.”~ The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214

“In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is they quote me for support of such views”~ The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214

Your Einstein quotations have no bearing upon his atheism...

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source…They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres.

This is addressing intolerance..."fanatical atheist". Einstein was tolerant of everyone, but he certainly did not share their views...

“In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is they quote me for support of such views

academically, as I already said, he's an agnostic, because you cannot logically conclude anything from the null hypothesis that is God.


I agree with you, my point was about the 'fanatical atheist' statement, specifically referring to how you and one other person in this thread have chosen to present your disagreements. As far as his beliefs, from the statements he made, it appears he believed a God does exist, just not a personal God.



the2real4mafol on 24 January 2013
timmah said:
the2real4mafol said:
timmah said:
the2real4mafol said:

I personally just don't see the point in any religion. It just seems no matter what there books say, all religions are used as an excuse for hatred and bloodshed, especially when governments start to get over run by religious nutcases who base their policies on their beliefs rather than what benefits the whole nation. Just look at the numerous religious wars in Europe that have occurred over the last 300 to 1000 years, was all that necessary? If there was a god, surely he didn't want those wars to happen, the bible wanted peace right? 

I agree with you on that point, though without religion, do we really think they wouldn't have found another excuse? The Chinese government does a lot of awful things and they are completely non religious. Maybe the problem isn't the misused tool, but the holder of the tool?

Yeah i don't doubt that religion wanted any conflict at all, but government clearly use to get what they want. Without religion, the political ideology of the day is used to get what government wants, just look at the USSR or North Korea

Yep, not to mention racism, nationalism, or any other 'ism' that can convince people they are superior to another group. Humans are a messed up bunch... you only need to turn on the news for about 30 seconds to know that.

Unforunately thats too true



Xbox Series, PS5 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch 2 will outsell the PS5 by 2030

dsgrue3 on 24 January 2013
timmah said:


I agree with you, my point was about the 'fanatical atheist' statement, specifically referring to how you and one other person in this thread have chosen to present your disagreements. As far as his beliefs, from the statements he made, it appears he believed a God does exist, just not a personal God.

It does not appear he believed a God existed. I have no idea how you came up with that even. He says he is a deeply religious nonbeliever, direct quotation. Academically he rejects the notion of a personal God entirely, and poses the idea of Spinozas God. 

Again, academically agnostic.

Privately, personally, atheist. 

This isn't up for debate.



timmah on 24 January 2013
dsgrue3 said:
timmah said:


I agree with you, my point was about the 'fanatical atheist' statement, specifically referring to how you and one other person in this thread have chosen to present your disagreements. As far as his beliefs, from the statements he made, it appears he believed a God does exist, just not a personal God.

It does not appear he believed a God existed. I have no idea how you came up with that even. He says he is a deeply religious nonbeliever, direct quotation. Academically he rejects the notion of a personal God entirely, and poses the idea of Spinozas God. 

Again, academically agnostic.

Privately, personally, atheist. 

This isn't up for debate.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."

Seems to indicate a specific belief that something bigger exists. In this quote, the words 'he' and 'himself' were used to describe the 'god' einstein said he believed in. I don't see any indication that he was not at least open-minded on the subject of some sort of God existing, though he clearly was critical of the idea of a personal God. I thought he was personally an agnostic as well as academically. An atheist by definition says there is no god, period, so he would therefore be agnostic.

Since you say it isn't up for debate, though, it clearly isn't.

EDIT: Also note he wasn't postulating something academically in this case, he clearly was quoted saying "I believe in", which indicates agnosticism was his personal belief. Obviously he doesn't agree with me, but I'm not sure how you say he was an atheist either.



timmah on 24 January 2013
Runa216 said:

LAdies and gentlemen: This thread and the nonsense being spewed in the name of god (we have a right to believe! you're persecuting us for challenging our faith!) is why I feel the need to disprove or disagree with religion.

That is all.

dsgrue3, you and I need to go have some gay orgy while eating shellfish on a friday or something, just to spite people. And to top it all off, we need to be wearing two socks each, one cotton, one woll, just to spite them. 

So it's nonsense to say 'we have a right to believe'? Just looking for some clarity because I certainly think you have the right to think and believe as you do, I would hope you don't actually think that's nonsense.

Also, I challenge you to find one person in this thread who would be 'spited' by you doing any of the stuff at the bottom of your post, go for it and save some shellfish for me. I'll even put on those socks provided the're not stiff by the time I get them! You honestly believe we're all crazy, and it's pretty funny to watch you (incorrectly) apply your imagined straw men to anybody you disagree with.

I'd also like to quote this, because it was well said:

Fayceless said:
You are creating and inflating conflict in your own mind. You seek, knowingly or not, to stir up trouble, and you succeed. You view this success as proof that you need to attack religion more. You latch on to a few select arguments that bother you, focus exclusively on these (internally exaggerated) points, and disregard sound, productive debate.

 

What's the point?

 

Argue for rationality. Argue for acceptance and open-mindedness. Don't argue against a religion itself. That is always a losing argument. You hold yourself, and everyone else, back when you try to fight faith. Fight for logic, reason, acceptance, and tolerance.