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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Current vs Last, a Console Sales Story (COMPLETE!)

 

Final Smash: Should somone one do this at the start of every gen?

yes 65 75.58%
 
no 3 3.49%
 
show me the money! 7 8.14%
 
Total:75
phenom08 said:
I think Ninty is betting big time on 3D World. Also guys we shouldn't rely on VGC figures until we know for sure it didn't do well in October. Lets wait for Oct. NPD.

Been here since beginning... VGC is never tha much different than NPD. In fact there have been times when manufacture ship figures proved VGC right over NPD.

World-wide, VGC is always close enough that it anything else is a statistical tie.



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@Superchunk I don't see how you can say this with the recent updates lol. Also according to VGC, PS3 has sold 79.9 even though for this week Sony says 80 million shipped.



phenom08 said:
@Superchunk I don't see how you can say this with the recent updates lol. Also according to VGC, PS3 has sold 79.9 even though for this week Sony says 80 million shipped.


There's always room to be off. Being 10% + or - is well within any worldwide statistics "guess" that any sales account like this will do. Do you really think NPD is perfectly account for sold? No, none of them are and there has been one or two xmas where manufacturer shipped proves npd wrong as well. Of course, there is no follow up news when they adjust their numbers as they are not public.

Fact is, VGC is plenty reliable for hardware sell through.



RolStoppable said:

No, that's not a fact. If we talk about the USA specifically, this year VGC has been off by 30-50% on several occasions.

As for your idea of abandoning ship, that basically equates bowing out of the home console market. Then what? Third party, handheld only or a home console+handheld hybrid to send the handheld business into oblivion too?

Have they really been off that much this year? Guess I haven't paid as close attention as I should have.

Let's say by next March they've only shipped 6m units LTD.

What do you do Rol?

Wii U is obviously a failure at that point as its VERY likely both XB1 and PS4 are about to pass you. Do you keep pushing on your own? You can't cut price as its already near loss or is a loss. You've likely lost the final remaining 3rd party support by mid 2014 at this point. You're doing worse than Gamecube with a device that has far less margin.



RolStoppable said:

Let's say by next March they've shipped 9m units LTD.

The Wii U is obviously a failure at that point and it's clear that the PS4 will pass it eventually, and the One possibly too. The token support from third parties will be gone before too long as well.

Why do I say this? Because a best case scenario doesn't change anything either. So what should Nintendo do?

Games that are already in full development will obviously be completed and released as planned. The home console business will be put into survival mode, meaning that drastic price cuts are out of the question, but $50 in the fall of every year is still feasible. At least for 2014 and 2015, because once it's $199 with a bundled game, price isn't really an issue anymore. At that point people are either interested or they aren't.

As for games development, games that demand huge teams won't be greenlit anymore (although the Zelda team isn't capable of finishing two games in one generation anyway). Instead the focus will be put on reasonably sized teams putting out quality titles. There's absolutely no point in investing into shiny graphics when the Wii U won't be able to match the PS4 and One anyway, and people who want Nintendo games don't care much about graphics either. There will be increased focus on the digital business, finally exploiting the immense back catalogue. This means an account system that allows people to carry over their digital games from one Nintendo console to the next, and everything else that works as incentive to make people spend more on digital games. For example, the one-size-fits-all pricing approach gets canned; not all NES games will cost $5, but only the best ones; same goes for other systems that are part of Virtual Console. Nintendo already has sales data from the Wii Virtual Console, so for many games they should already know if they need to be offered cheaper.

Do you realize what I am getting at? The Wii U having worse margins on hardware than the GC won't make a difference for financials, because the Wii U has a digital business (where almost the entire price a game sells for amounts to profit) while the GC had not. You don't abandon the ship, you change the course of the ship. You make important decisions that should have a positive impact on your next systems. You don't deny people Virtual Console games, you embrace them. You tear down all artificial barriers and make GB/GBC/GBA games available on the home console as well. You make pro-consumer decisions instead of all those stupid pro-industry decisions that led to the Wii U disaster. You grow your games library at a low cost, but still make it increasingly more appealing.

And all the while you are doing that, you begin to plan for the next generation and build strong launch games for an affordable system that launches in time for the holidays of 2017. What the big third party publishers demand won't matter one bit, because Nintendo can be successful without them. Nintendo needs to build a console that consumers want to buy (like the Wii) instead of a console that developers might want to develop for (like the Wii U). Also, it doesn't matter what Sony and Microsoft are doing at that point (2017). Since the industry doesn't want Nintendo, Nintendo is free to do what's best for them and best for their customers. Specs comparisons, what will the big third party publishers do, those are questions that have no relevance. Nintendo's success is not measured by what other companies do and say, but by what Nintendo's bottom line shows.


I agree that pulling out soon is akin to Sega and that just ends badly for Nintendo.

I agree that a surgence in digital content especially better priced VC games is a very smart move. However, I disagree on Nintendo doing it. They are notorious for forcing their view of value on the game. But they need to realize the appeal of a $0.99 game and why angry birds at its simplicity outsells... well everything. Some a quality, smaller per world style 2D mario could be easily at $2 a pop.

However, I think pushing it a full 5 years to 2017 is not smart. I look at their inabilty to support Wii in 2010 and 2011 as proof of this. Wii was a massive win, yet they cut support because they couldn't work on games for it and Wii U/3DS.

I think they need to play for 2016 holidays.

Definitely need to push the proposition with a singular account system so digital VC content (at the least) will simply move over with the next console/handheld systems.

By focusing on the smaller quality titles you suggest and having Zelda out in early 2014, they have the time to refocus on big games for 2016 for N7. The base OS/Network is already done with Wii U so less resources need to be utlized to build that from scratch. Instead you focus on friendly dev hardware plus 3 big IPs for launch. Not months/years later, launch. Oct/Nov/Dec. and not remakes of anything. (regardless of how much I love zelda ww.

Also, I still disagree with you on 3rd parties. While Nintendo can remain profitable on just their software, its a path of diminishing returns. It will only continue to sell less each iteration until they are forced to go under. Wii was an anomoly due to motion and Wii Sports followed by Wii Fit. Its low price and these very mass market appeal experiences made it a must have for everyone. But to sustain real growth they need the other experiences too. They need the core 3rd party games as well as the awesome mass consumer entertainment.

As I said in a my thread from 2011, Nintendo needs to have their games on their harware plus 3rd party plus full android-like app/media entertainment options. They NEED this if they expect to remain viable in the home console business.

3DS can be argued that it actually has that. It has Nintendo's core. it has 3rd party support. It has media capability (actually more than Wii U). The lack of power is fine because it has all of that at a price point that is good for it to compete with smartphones/tablets, i.e. sub $200.

Wii U has none of that. Its barely getting Nintendo core now. It has almost no 3rd party support. Its media capability is crap compared to last gen PS3. Its at a price that is simply not value added based on its competing products last gen tech to current gen tech.

I know you don't like the gamepad, but had the system had real media center capabilities, bluray, music, android apps, and all 3rd party support up to now... it would NOT be under 4m sold. It would be 8m easily by now. At $349. Because the gamepad provides value to those extra items as well as games, well likely more value to nongaming related usage.

Nintendo just gimps out on the stupid things too often. Wifi-n smart. Bluetooth 2 stupid. Big digital push smart. lack of unified account and in general crap server/network capacity stupid.

ok sidetracked, sorry.

Point is, you make some very valid arguements. But your basic premise of Nintendo only will result in no Nintendo existing.



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ps3+xbox one will win



PS4 - over 100 millions let's say 120m
Xbox One - 70m
Wii U - 25m

Vita - 15m if it will not get Final Fantasy Kingdoms Heart and Monster Hunter 20m otherwise
3DS - 80m

As I said in a my thread from 2011, Nintendo needs to have their games on their hardware plus 3rd party plus full android-like app/media entertainment options. They NEED this if they expect to remain viable in the home console business.

Wanted to quote what I said in that long post. I had a thread in 2011 that tried to state why all three needed these uber-entertainment devices where gaming was mearly one of many features vs the primal feature.

MS has done this with X1.

Sony has pretty much done this, though they PR like its still a primary game console.

Nintendo is only one without all of this or only has small parts of this and I'm telling you what I said in 2011 was right. They won't succeed due to that failure to recognize where the market was heading.

N7 needs all of that with their 1st party being the big difference maker.



RolStoppable said:

1) Should do and will do are obviously two different things. Even if Nintendo doesn't change their VC pricing, performing some or all of the other things would still be huge improvement over the current state of things.

2) 2017 will be mostly empty for the Wii U, just like the GC's 2006. A 2016 launch for N7 would cut the Wii U too short with only really three years worth of games, if N7 is supposed to have a strong start. Plus 2016 could be the launch year of their next handheld, it's just going to make things too difficult by launching a new handheld and a new home console in one and the same year.

3) Zelda U won't be out in early 2014. We'll be lucky if it comes out in 2014 at all. One more reason why N7 is better suited for 2017, because otherwise it will feel like ages before it gets its Zelda game.

4) You just want to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Nintendo doesn't need GameCube 3.0. If Nintendo sells their hardware at a profit, sells boatloads of their own software and creates new IPs on a regular basis, then their business isn't going to be on a road that will inevitably lead off of a cliff like you suggest. You say Nintendo needs those big third party games, even though you have the proof right in front of your eyes. The Wii U already had more of those big third party games in one year than the Wii had in all of its lifetime, yet it's the Wii U that isn't selling. You need to separate personal desire from your analysis to make your analysis worth a damn. Nintendo only needs core third party support, because you are a miser who doesn't want to buy a second console or a better PC. That's how you arrive at a ridiculous conclusion.

5) And I'll continue to say that that is hogwash. The more effort Nintendo puts into getting there, the lower their sales will be. That's because these things come at a trade-off where the price of the hardware increases. I don't even need to address media capabilities, because third parties alone already require a $400 box to even consider if they might want to develop for it.

6) Except that the 3DS doesn't have all that. It has Nintendo games, of course. But it only has some Japanese third party support and its media capabilities... heck, why do I even humor you on this? Nobody gives a damn, if the 3DS can do something besides playing video games. Hence why the 2DS was created, to remove all the unnecessary trash and focus on the only thing that matters: Play great video games at a great price.

7) You do realize that the Wii also had almost no third party support and wasn't far above the sixth generation consoles in terms of processing power? There were some delays of Nintendo games on the Wii U, but that alone doesn't explain the difference in sales performance between the two Nintendo consoles. What you call an anomaly, I call audience expanding games. New IPs that reach out to new consumers. That's what's causing growth for Nintendo, not tired third party core franchises that people can play on other systems too. The Wii U lacks audience expanding games that go beyond Nintendo's core. Nintendo Land was a new IP, but it has Nintendo's core attached to it everywhere you look. Wii Sports and Wii Fit didn't, they were blank slates. It's not that they sold despite of that, but rather because of that.

8) Seriously? Media capabilities and third party support would have easily doubled Wii U sales up until now? You are telling me that people would buy a Nintendo console for non-gaming and games they can play on at least two other systems? And you are telling me that there are more of those people than there are people who buy a Nintendo console to play Nintendo games? You know, that's the point where even you should realize that your Nintendo core + third parties + media capabilities argument has jumped the shark.

My premise is sound. A Nintendo that keeps hardware and software prices under control while introducing new IPs on a regular basis will experience growth in both, revenue and profits. And when I say new IPs, I don't mean something like "another game that is like Zelda" like so many people claim they want. Let Zelda offer Zelda's experience and create something that isn't already there. That's how a company can keep growing.

1) ok

2) shouldn't have 'empty' years. need better transition.

3) I meant early 2015 for Zelda U. My bad.

rest

3DS
It has Nintendo games. check.
It has good price. check.
It has 3rd party games that are suited for portables. check - doesn't need or want COD and other bigger console games. That is why PSP and Vita fail to rule. They try to copy/paste home console. Not the same audience.
It has other media features... my kids use that a lot as do their friends and cousins. You forget the primary audience is younger people. Those who likely won't have smartphones and thus see value in those extra features beyond games.

Of course games are most important, but you are too quick to dismiss the 3rd party and other media functionality.

2DS will fail like GB Micro. While its a great idea, its form-factor is hideous and it further confuses the DS name. They should've left it out and focused on bundles with 3DS or limited sales. It won't last a year.

Wii
ONLY was a uber success due to motion and wii sports/wii fit. Those clearly hit the widest possible market acceptance. That then trickled a bit to a few other games like Mario Kart and NSMBWii and other rare 3rd party titles like Just Dance.

The reason it died in 2009 wasn't because Nintendo didnt' deliver another sports title/fitness/new ip... it was because that market changed. It went angry birds and other mobile experiences that no home console was offering. Nintendo failed to see that and adapt (well its online wouldn't have supported it anyways) nor did it capture enough core experiences to grow that segment. Thus it faile to pass 50% marketshare and Nintendo jumped ship themselves causing the inevitable slow decline to become a rapid decline.

Wii U
Wii U has the tech, touchscreen, online etc to be that machine to hit both core and the mass market that wii sports/fit appealed to. But they didn't do that. Instead they went core only and it failed as 3rd parties once again turned their backs due to tech not being where they want it and without the lower price plus necessary IPs the mass market sees no appeal either.

Now we see wii fit plus a sports pack plus 2d mario bundles that should have been there at launch. That would have drew in the mass market and taht would have cause many 3rd parties to not drop support they seem to initially wanted to give Wii U.

But the gaming experience alone isn't enough. You need the media / full entertainment too now. Days of a NES in a corner room isnt' enough. If you don't have online entertainmetn options with video based options etc... you'll fail to capture any significant market share as a tv connected device.

Gamecube was the device you actually state they need to build. As was N64. In both cases Nintendo lost share.



They should reach into their pockets, buy 3-5 decent (western) dev studios next year and make them start working on some new IP's. Make Nintendo consoles absolutely a self-sustainable platform. Why have to rely on 3rd parties at all? 3rd parties dislike Nintendo platforms on the simple premise that they cannot compete with nintendo software. And that is good for Nintendo. Because you get most profit by selling your games on your platforms.

Keep moneyhatting capcom and other 1 or 2 large 3rd party studios into putting games which you cannot produce (like licensed sport sims or FPS). Keep the good relationship with indies that is forming with Wii U and the bih N has a winner.

For 2016 announce the first ever console that is able to push 4K graphics just to feel the salt from rabid PS4 and XBONE owners :)



.

RolStoppable said:

We'll see soon enough if the 2DS fails. Retailers in the UK offered the 2DS for 10 pounds less than normal and the system topped the weekly UK hardware charts (internal GfK data) immediately. I don't think it will share the GB Micro's fate which had no substantial advantages over the GBA SP.

The Wii didn't die in 2009. Well, it showed decline initially, but it shot back up when Nintendo released Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit Plus and NSMB Wii in the second half of the year. Coincidently, during the period of decline (first half of the year) Nintendo had only released Punch Out!! and the NA-exclusive flop Excitebots, so your recollection of events doesn't hold up. The market didn't change, the basic logic that software sells hardware still holds true. This was further emphasized in the later years by all those comments that Nintendo hardware sales had become more seasonal which really just came down to Nintendo stuffing the holiday quarter with releases while leaving the rest of the year mostly barren. Lastly, your line of logic that "that market" switched from Wii Sports to Angry Birds and never looked back is simply disgusting.

Your Wii U analysis is hilarious. How can you not notice the glaring contradiction in your words? Here's the rundown:

1) Wii U was equipped to cater to the core and the massmarket.
2) Wii U lost third party support, because it lacked the processing power that third parties wanted.
3) Wii U failed to sell to the massmarket, because the price was too high.

If you fix point 2, then point 3 becomes a bigger problem. If you fix point 3, then point 2 becomes a bigger problem. Therefore, point 1 has to be flat out wrong. How could you not comprehend that while you were writing it?

Last point, how come that you conclude I am talking about an N64/GC-like console when I made it clear that Nintendo has to create audience expanding IPs? The N64 and GC lineups were full of sequels, spinoffs and new IPs that were derived from already existing IPs. There was nothing like Wii Sports or Wii Fit in there. If you read and comprehended my previous post, then your conclusion should have been that I am suggesting that Nintendo needs to make another Wii. I have to wonder if you are flat out trolling at this point.

I don't see it as black and white.

I think Nintendo can get 3rd party support with an appropriate console AND still cater to Nintendo core as well as expanded audience.

Maybe I'm being to rash on the price as to do that, yes price has to go up and people were willing to pay $400-$500 for a Wii at one point.

Your vision of another Wii will always end like Wii where it has no sustainment and even Nintendo walks away.

They need 3rd parties AND new IPs on their own plus their existing IPs. Wii was closest to having that but never got 3rd parties. Wii U started showing 3rd parties but left all the expanded stuff off and no new IPs, now 3rd parties are walking away as the expanded stuff is coming, so any rebound will be limited and short.

Nintendo needs a console:
$300-$400 that can relatively easily port from competitors machines so 3rd parties have low barrier of entry
Large Nintendo IPs at launch (at least 2)
NEW Nintendo IPs at launch for core and expanded
MANY 3rd party IPs to fill all other genres and grab core

That is how it needs to plan.

Gamepad + Wiimote + reg controller all need to exist too as they are great items with value and distinction in case of first two.