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Forums - General Discussion - You Don't Necessarily Owe God Anything

Jay520 said:
DaRev said:

Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being ale to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?


There are numerous theories that explain the origin of the sun and air that do not involve the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibeloved, and omnipresent creator. 


Yeah, but they all still run into the same WALL which requires you to belive in something that you can't see. For example the Big Bang Theory says something to the effect that there was a big bang that cause the universe and the same is ever expanding. Well my question is where did the thing that cause the big bang come from, and if the universer is expanding, what space is it expanding into?

It all must point to a creator or else it makes no sense. Things just don't HAPPEN, and even if they do, they don't HAPPEN so perfectly as the sun, air and nature.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

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Jay520 said:
DaRev said:

Firstly, God designed MAN perfectly and without any flaws (and certainly not designed to fail), but with the freedom of CHOICE to love or not to love him, God who created man. If you’re saying that MAN’s freedom of choice to love is a flaw then, you don’t understand LOVE. I assume then the you would prefer that God created you without the FLAW of freedom of choice to love him or not?

 

That's not true. If humans were designed perfectly, then they would have made the perfect choice by choosing to love god.

Good point. However, man would eventually sin becuse of choice, as we needed to know what sin and its consequese were, especially where someone, aka the Devil, would influence man to no make that perfect choice to love God.

Put yourself in Adam and Eve's shoes and consider whether you would have said no to the Devil not knowing what sin or the consequesces thereof were.

I think AstroGamer also makes a good point. 

 

yes it is true. As some would and some wouldn't, but we all have the pr. Evene today some people chose to accept God and some don't. But we're talking about pefect beings right, and we today are way short of being perfect, 



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

AstroGamer said:
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
Interesting theory, but i'm atheist so i don't believe in god, which means I owe him nothing! I have what I have because of my family or my actions, a so called god didn't gave me any fortune or misfortune, it's up to me.

Any problems in this world are created by the selfish act of other people, not a god's incompetence


Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being able to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?

You are right, we didn't create the sun or air or water, but neither did a god, we don't know where they came from, but we are lucky to have them. But I say we get stuff because of our own actions because we control what we do but also our lives are this way because of what people did in the past, people are willing to do things to get wealthier and advance the human race, which is nothing to do with a god. For example, medicine is much better than it ever was before, because people made it better and so more people live. 

But i see you like Nintendo, so i'll try to link to that. Say, if Miyamoto or anyone else didn't choose to expand Nintendo into gaming in the 1980's, great games like Mario or Zelda wouldn't of existed. That's my point

So, you just OK in knowing that things like the sun, air, NATURE exists and really don't care where they came from? Or are you to afraid that if you really thought about it, logically, you're might find that your way viewing the world and where it came from would fall apart?

Your correct that our lives are very depended on what we did in the past - for example, Jesus lived in the past and thus we has Christianity and all of its teachings that we are now debating and affecting our lives even today

As for Mr. Miyamoto, if you trace his ancestory back to his first orginal father and mother - where do you think they came from? Meanng who were the first Father and Mother on Earth?, logically speaking of course

I just don't think nature exists because of some god that probably don't exist anyway. It's impossible to know how life started on Earth and not other planets around it, so i just ignore that, nature was around before people or any religion.

Also, is there any proof that a Jesus existed in bethlehem 2000 years ago?

As for the last part, I don't think we could track back to the first humans, but whoever they were they just evolved from another animal species. I just believe in Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory, where things evolve to fit their environment best over time


On your second "paragraph" yes there is. First of all, even if jesus didn't exist, then the intricate teachings from the bible have to come from somewhere. That creator of those rather radical ideas of the time was "Jesus". Second of all, The sheer number of texts (both true and fake) mention Jesus's name. To universally come up with the same name at roughly same period of time would be highly improbable in 1st and 2nd century AD, so someone named Jesus was teaching these things around that time. Third of all, there are numerous pieces of historical evidence that even several textbooks accept that Jesus of Nazareth was alive and teaching this stuff around 0 AD. His miracles are still up to debate as it is hard to prove something like produce enough bread to feed 5000 from only a few loaves.

I view the genesis story as a neccesary evil. If we wanted complete "free will", then we needed to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (aka morality). Otherwise, we would be just like dogs, loyal to their master but not making rational choices. He then, punished us to get us to understand that bad things will be punished so that we don't go around commiting evil deeds repeatedly( like serial killers and such).    

I concur.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

The laconic version of this thread: Deism



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

DaRev said:


Yeah, but they all still run into the same WALL which requires you to belive in something that you can't see. For example the Big Bang Theory says something to the effect that there was a big bang that cause the universe and the same is ever expanding. Well my question is where did the thing that cause the big bang come from, and if the universer is expanding, what space is it expanding into?

It all must point to a creator or else it makes no sense. Things just don't HAPPEN, and even if they do, they don't HAPPEN so perfectly as the sun, air and nature.



Perhaps, but the same could be said for God. Both the BBT and the creationist theory propose that something happened for no reason (well, actually proponents of the BBT don't believe something happened for no reason; they're still investigating the origins of the universe). What makes the BBT more valid is the fact that it doesn't assume the existence of extra beings which we have no evidence of.

If you think there's evidence of a creator, then fine. But how do you know there is only one creator? And how do you know that creator is conscious, all-knowing, all-powerful, and most importantly, all-loving? I mean...how can you add all these traits to it? Saying there was a creator is alerady a stretch, but to add such random traits like being all-loving is ridiculous. It's not necessary to support your audience and just makes it seem even more unbelievable.

Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we HAVE to jump to a conclusion and blame God. 



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DaRev said:

Good point. However, man would eventually sin becuse of choice, as we needed to know what sin and its consequese were, especially where someone, aka the Devil, would influence man to no make that perfect choice to love God.

Put yourself in Adam and Eve's shoes and consider whether you would have said no to the Devil not knowing what sin or the consequesces thereof were.

yes it is true. As some would and some wouldn't, but we all have the pr. Evene today some people chose to accept God and some don't. But we're talking about pefect beings right, and we today are way short of being perfect, 

The bolded would not happen if the person was perfect. A perfect being would not be influenced by the devil.



DaRev said:
So what you're saying is it's theoretically impossible for a human to not sin. Sinning is an intrinsic part of being human. If that were true, then 1.) Humans do not have free will because we are incapable of not sinning, and 2.) God punishes humans for their innate essence - something humans do not have control over. 

Well, I would say that, without the help of God, it is impossible for humans to not sin or even know what sin is. I believe that being true (1) humans do, however, have free will and can accept that God’s teaching which inevitably makes humans POTENTIALLY incapable of sin (read Romans 6), (2) God does punish humans for their innate essence, but humans, with God’s help, can overcome their innate desires, and even if they fail to do so, God will not see them as sinners but children who have made a mistake a will be forgiven if they ask to be.

Yes, I believe the world steamed from two people. For example, I saw a documentary about the American Wild Mustang/Horses and how a small number were brought to America. In just a couple hundred years they number in the millions. Same applies to any other species on earth, including humans. Introduce a small number into a new environment, give it a couple hundred years, and watch the population grow. Humans had many thousands of years to populate the earth, yes, from just two people.

 

1.) Exactly, a person cannot escape sin on their own - they are completely incapable of doing so. That should be clear evidence that we lack free will. 

2.) God designed our inherent nature. Therefore, it's not fair that he punishes us for our inherent nature. Just because we can escape the punishment (through worship or whatever) doesn't negate the fact that the punishment is unfair. There shouldn't be any punishment to escape in the first place. That's like programming a robot to walk, yet getting upset everytime the robot walks.

There's a large difference between a "small number of people" and just two people. Also, the birth defects resulting from incest would probably be too frequent to allow such a civilization to survive.



TL;DR

But if you believe God created everything and gave you life, you do kinda owe Him.

Like your parents give birth to you and provide for you until you're an adult, and you don't owe them in the sense of repaying them...but you do kinda owe them in the sense of going on to live a good life and have a family of your own and whatnot. So yeah I think you owe God (assuming you believe in one) but all you have to do to pay Him back is make the most of life and not waste your days away and be a lazy ass.



Mr Khan said:
The laconic version of this thread: Deism


You learn something new every day.

Anyways, its funny how humans try to explain away everything and come up with stuff like Deism, which helps to explain only part of the truth, but is ultimately flawed in its conclusion. 



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

Jay520 said:
DaRev said:


Yeah, but they all still run into the same WALL which requires you to belive in something that you can't see. For example the Big Bang Theory says something to the effect that there was a big bang that cause the universe and the same is ever expanding. Well my question is where did the thing that cause the big bang come from, and if the universer is expanding, what space is it expanding into?

It all must point to a creator or else it makes no sense. Things just don't HAPPEN, and even if they do, they don't HAPPEN so perfectly as the sun, air and nature.



Perhaps, but the same could be said for God. Both the BBT and the creationist theory propose that something happened for no reason (well, actually proponents of the BBT don't believe something happened for no reason; they're still investigating the origins of the universe). What makes the BBT more valid is the fact that it doesn't assume the existence of extra beings which we have no evidence of.

If you think there's evidence of a creator, then fine. But how do you know there is only one creator? And how do you know that creator is conscious, all-knowing, all-powerful, and most importantly, all-loving? I mean...how can you add all these traits to it? Saying there was a creator is alerady a stretch, but to add such random traits like being all-loving is ridiculous. It's not necessary to support your audience and just makes it seem even more unbelievable.

Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we HAVE to jump to a conclusion and blame God. 


Well, you do need some FAITH to answer those questions. Problem is that many people don't have faith. Do you belive there are black holes out in space? Or do you believe in anything you have never or would never see?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.