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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft screwed up with the Surface tablet...

superchunk on 24 October 2012
disolitude said:
superchunk said:

Yeah, RT sounds like a mistake all together. It should simply be the windows phone on an inexpensive tablet. See what Google did with the Nexus 7 or the specialized features of the Samsung Note 10?... that is how you break into the tablet market. Other Android OEMs already proved you're not going to do it with a high-end tablet directly competing at the price point of iPad, even with better features they didn't do well.

WinRT should have been a 7ish inch device with winphone and price similar to Nexus7. Then $50 or so more for the awesome keyboard attachment.

Pro can be the $600 device as it can truly replace a laptop. That one should be full Windows and simply priced to create market. However, it will be nice but priced too high. I'm betting close to $900 which is at least $200 too much.

The problem is that only way Google can sell you a tablet over an ipad is if its under 200 bucks. Microsoft has no business selling tablets anyways. They sell software, and a race to the bottom doesnt work for them as well as it does for google.

I do agree that Win RT really shouldnt exist. A 7 inch Windows phone 8 device could be a fun side project or a stop gap until Windows 9 goes all touch and scales down to smaller devices.

I agree that MS should remain a software company and focus on that, however, I disagree that Google couldn't match Apple. However, at first in needed to break into the market. Nexus7 is that device. Soon there will be a Nexus10 (this holiday) that will be a bit closer in price. Then there will be models next year that creap up on price again. Its all about breaking into the market and then moving upstream. That is what Google is doing and it will be successful in the long run.

Android on phones took two years before they finally started dominating. That was due to breaking in at a lower point, improving software, and then hitting full steam. Now you have Android phones that are equal or better than iPhone, sell at same price, and have 50% of the marketshare. It will happen in tablets as well as now you have the dominate low priced models with quality software (as android finally has OS defined well for tablets).

MS needs to do that as well, but through OEMs with winphone. Not themselves with RT. Pro should also be through OEMs. The keyboard was a fantastic idea and definitely a differentiator. But the pricing is simply bad and will fail overall. Pro will do ok, but nothing shattering... just similar to laptops of same price.

Nexus7, 10, and Samsungs Note 10.1 are all great examples of how to compete with a iPad dominated market. Surface seems really nice, but RT is just a bad idea and pricing is horrible accross the board.



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disolitude on 24 October 2012

Here is an article which outlines pretty much everything I said in the OP.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/now-that-its-here-is-there-a-place-for-windows-rt/



phenom08 on 24 October 2012

I agree they did screw up with Surface. Starting all over with apps was a terrible idea. They have a history of screwing up on their hardware though.



disolitude on 25 October 2012
phenom08 said:

I agree they did screw up with Surface. Starting all over with apps was a terrible idea. They have a history of screwing up on their hardware though.


Shockingly it looks like they got the hardware bang on this time. Every reviewer praises the build quality and hardware features of the surface. It's the software that's letting them down this time.



phenom08 on 25 October 2012
disolitude said:
phenom08 said:

I agree they did screw up with Surface. Starting all over with apps was a terrible idea. They have a history of screwing up on their hardware though.


Shockingly it looks like they got the hardware bang on this time. Every reviewer praises the build quality and hardware features of the surface. It's the software that's letting them down this time.

True what I said does refer to the software lol. So yea you would think they would have gotten that right.



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smbu2000 on 25 October 2012
disolitude said:
 


All you are doing here is marginalizing all of the gazillion weakneses that Win RT has while hyping the few advantages it has and pretending that is all consumers will be interested in. People are preordering it because it looks cool, but they have no clue what they will end up with.  This may hurt Microsoft in the long run actually.

As someone who has had a true Windows 8 tablet for a while(Acer W500), it somewhat pisses me off to see these reviewers bitch about how laggy the Win RT is, how there are no apps, how borwsing chugs and flash runs like crap. Windows 8 running on the lowest specd x86 processor has none of these issues...

In the current apps state one would have to be completely bonkers to get Surface over the iPad if all they want to do is browse and consume content. I was playing Call of Duty 4 and Portal 2 on my Acer W500 Win 8 tablet few months back which the iPad can not do. Sadly I cant play any of my game catalog on RT and have to purchase games from scratch. I can also forget about emulators.  Even spec wise, the iPad 4 with its A6X processor absolutely destroys the Surface and its Tegra 3.

But you say there is productivity which you can do with the Surface but not the iPad... Lets look at that.

The Office 2013 that is included you speak of...well it's missing key features like macros. Also you are not allowed LEGALLY to use it in a corporate environment. Consumer use only. Read the license agreement... So technically I can't even use it for work. And I can't install the awesome Office 2007 on it which I purcahsed for 200 bucks 3 years ago.  Moving on about productivity, it is very fussy when it comes to printing. HP and Dell announced that over 50% of their printers will not work with Win RT. 

Im sorry, but this is not a productivity device.

Lastly no one seems to understand why Windows RT exists. Windows 8 running on an Atom processor does everything Win RT does but better and has legacy support, similar battery life and costs the same (Asus and Acer are charging 499 for their Win 8 x86 Atom tablets).

Honestly there are more holes in Microsofts current Surface strategy than Swiss cheese. What they should have done is released an x86 based Surface first. $500 bucks for Atom $899 for i5. Then 6 months later when apps are there, they should have released a Win RT ARM based Surface...

That or never bother making Win RT in the first place.

Inthe review at Anandtech, they did a quick comparison of the surface (Tegra 3) compared to a Clovertrail (Atom Z2760) Win8 tablet. Hard to really check performance at the moment, but it handily bests the surface.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review/10

Maybe MS should have gone with one of those for Surface instead and still gone with the IB one for the Pro for max performance.




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selnor on 25 October 2012
disolitude said:
selnor said:
mmmmm. It would seem theres different people out there with different markets in mind.

Firstly, Im no longer interested in any desktop mode at all. I want a device that I can use easily to take to a friends house. Use the web. Connect a printer. Watch Videos. Links with WP8 ( which surface RT has exactly the same Windows arcitecture hence the double apps incoming ) and talks to Xbox.

Also it has full Microsoft Office 2013 Home and Student Edition. Which I can use to print letters, CV's, etc. Use excel to monitor a business or make spreadsheets which I can take wit me and print anywhere. Etc.

The fact that its priced at the same price as an Ipad is amazing. As all reviews say its far more functional than an Ipad and is more like a PC in its uses.

As far as apps are concerned WP8 and Surface RT both start from scratch. As niether share any Windows architecture from WP7 or Windows 7. A move Microsoft had to make to improve the underlying performances of the OS's. Now any app made for Windows 8 sares identical architecture to WP8, meaning more than likely more apps will be available as theres a larger pool of consumers. Lets face it Windows 7 on PC's didnt have apps. Only phones.

Now they can share them.

On the subject of passing by the wayside. Surface RT is sold out on preorders. Its selling well and hasnt even released.

Also unlike Android and Ipad according to reviews Surface RT also contains more ports than any other tablet. Shipping with a fullsized USB 2.0 port, Headphone jack and Micro HDMI port.

Concerning the performance of RT ARM arcitecture it would seem its a small issue regarding apps. Wich Microsoft claim is fixed and the update rolls out in a couple of weeks. Likely before I get mine. As far as the speed of OS tis review had this to say.

"The Surface pushes Windows 8's general interface along smoothly, and the architecture lets it function like the iPad or smartphones. It boots up in under 30 seconds, resumes from sleep in under three seconds, and lasts nearly nine hours on a charge when playing video. (I got considerably less battery life when just using it to write and surf the web). This isn't like the PCs you have come to know; there's no time to get a cup of coffee as it boots or the need to drag a clunky charger everywhere."

Any issue regarding apps available Microsoft say as of October 26 they will allow the apps waiting to release on the store. They have held all back for release day. As Windows 8 passes 2,3 and 400 million copies sold in the first year App devs wont be able to ignore the massive userbase. A userbase that dwarfs Iphone and Ipad. The fact is even desktop PC's will be able to access Apps.


All you are doing here is marginalizing all of the gazillion weakneses that Win RT has while hyping the few advantages it has and pretending that is all consumers will be interested in. People are preordering it because it looks cool, but they have no clue what they will end up with.  This may hurt Microsoft in the long run actually.

As someone who has had a true Windows 8 tablet for a while(Acer W500), it somewhat pisses me off to see these reviewers bitch about how laggy the Win RT is, how there are no apps, how borwsing chugs and flash runs like crap. Windows 8 running on the lowest specd x86 processor has none of these issues...

In the current apps state one would have to be completely bonkers to get Surface over the iPad if all they want to do is browse and consume content. I was playing Call of Duty 4 and Portal 2 on my Acer W500 Win 8 tablet few months back which the iPad can not do. Sadly I cant play any of my game catalog on RT and have to purchase games from scratch. I can also forget about emulators.  Even spec wise, the iPad 4 with its A6X processor absolutely destroys the Surface and its Tegra 3.

But you say there is productivity which you can do with the Surface but not the iPad... Lets look at that.

The Office 2013 that is included you speak of...well it's missing key features like macros. Also you are not allowed LEGALLY to use it in a corporate environment. Consumer use only. Read the license agreement... So technically I can't even use it for work. And I can't install the awesome Office 2007 on it which I purcahsed for 200 bucks 3 years ago.  Moving on about productivity, it is very fussy when it comes to printing. HP and Dell announced that over 50% of their printers will not work with Win RT. 

Im sorry, but this is not a productivity device.

Lastly no one seems to understand why Windows RT exists. Windows 8 running on an Atom processor does everything Win RT does but better and has legacy support, similar battery life and costs the same (Asus and Acer are charging 499 for their Win 8 x86 Atom tablets).

Honestly there are more holes in Microsofts current Surface strategy than Swiss cheese. What they should have done is released an x86 based Surface first. $500 bucks for Atom $899 for i5. Then 6 months later when apps are there, they should have released a Win RT ARM based Surface...

That or never bother making Win RT in the first place.

Everything you state as a bad thing means absolutely nothing to me. 

 

Lets look at this. You say Surface RT has no point.

 

Surface RT is a direct competitor to Ipad. 

Ipad, connects to no PC printer. Does not include Microsoft Office 2013. Does not support flash. Slows down considerably wen several apps are open. Cannot do multitasking in its true form. Cannot have crossover apps with Iphone. 

Yet costs the same. Ipad also needs adapters just to use a universally accepted USB port. It also has no HDMI out.

Now the surface RT is aimed at people who want what an Ipad offers but can do more than an Ipad.

Now if your not that customer fine. But people like me thats all I want and is perfect. And of course people will use Office at work. Who the hell is ever going to know. Been doing it for years.

Now Surface Pro sounds like more your thing. I couldnt give 2 beeps about 2007 office, 50 % of printers etc. Id buy or use what does work. As you care Im sure other models will be in your scope.

 

But as the preorder figures show and yes I know exactly what Im buying, People want an Ipad experience but more intuitive and involving.

Those people are me.

Let me just confirm.

I dont want the old desktop. Dont want it. Im finished with it. Dont care.

I dont want to be able to play some uber PC game, cange my GFX card etc etc. 

I want Metro, same apps, Office 2013, the ability to connect it to a printer of my choice that I'll buy. Still have a keyboard for when I need it and best of all crossover apps with WP8. 

Really looking forward to seeing apps that WP8 and Windows 8 apps wit the new architecture. Apparantly theres 60,000 apps launching tommorrow? In 1 day. I guess we'll see via Youtube. 

But I predict by Xmas 2014 Windows has more apps than any OS. And Metro apps will finally be te first coice for devs. Metro apps are so much better than the old IOS apps.



Argh_College on 25 October 2012
ECM said:

I agree w/ the OP, BUT is anyone surprised by this? This is another, desperate, 'me too!' attempt by Ballmer Co., which has proven, repeatedly, that it simply can't make money outside of their core competency of OS' and Office apps. They *need* new blood in this company *desperately* and until they get rid of the dinosaurs steering the ship, repeatedly, onto the rocks, it won't happen at the top which is where it is in most desperate need of a transfusion.

 (And please: don't even bring up the XBOX brand as a "success"*--it's only a success in the sense that it, finally, after losing untold billions, is turning small profits. From a biz standpoint, the XBOX brand is another loser but in light of things like Zune (and the pile of acquisitions that turned to ****), and perhaps Surface, it's a freaking overnight success story.)

*This is not a knock on the games, so settle down fanboys.

Apple Sony fanboys..

Apple Sony fanboys everywhere!

Microsoft gonna smash with Surface, Windows, Xbox this Quarter. Watch and Learn how Microsoft is allways on TOP.

Apple sometimes is on Top, other time was almot dead... Sony same thing... BUT Microsoft, man their are allways on TOP, you cant beat Microsoft, even if you try with all your forces!

Here for the next Xbox and for a INSANE QUARTER THIS WILL BE FOR Microsoft.

Windows 8 tablets sales will be insane, WP8 will pick up and Xbox will have once again a amazing holiday.. Surface will sell shitloads since they arent accepting pre orders anymore. New Office i didnt see anything yet but must be good.



MaulerX on 25 October 2012

I'm not sure I understand what the big fuss is about. The only difference between Windows RT and Windows 8 is that WRT does not run legacy apps. Other than that, it will run the SAME EXACT metro apps as W8. W8, by hook or by crook, will be in millions of PC's (desktops, laptops, netbooks, tablets, hybrids etc...). To suggest that W8 will not get app support is ludicrous, you know, the same EXACT apps that will run perfectly on your WRT Surface.

The Surface can do so much more than an iPad it's not even funny. The fact that you can plug in your Xbox controller to it for proper gaming is huge imo. You already have baked in XBL support. Imagine a steady flow of decent XBL Arcade Quality games that can be properly played with a gamepad. I'm seriously salivating at the immense potential this thing has.



selnor on 25 October 2012
MaulerX said:

I'm not sure I understand what the big fuss is about. The only difference between Windows RT and Windows 8 is that WRT does not run legacy apps. Other than that, it will run the SAME EXACT metro apps as W8. W8, by hook or by crook, will be in millions of PC's (desktops, laptops, netbooks, tablets, hybrids etc...). To suggest that W8 will not get app support is ludicrous, you know, the same EXACT apps that will run perfectly on your WRT Surface.

The Surface can do so much more than an iPad it's not even funny. The fact that you can plug in your Xbox controller to it for proper gaming is huge imo. You already have baked in XBL support. Imagine a steady flow of decent XBL Arcade Quality games that can be properly played with a gamepad. I'm seriously salivating at the immense potential this thing has.


Its the big guy trying to shit on the little guy.

Basically those using Legacy apps and love them cant understand how we dont care at all about them. It outperforms its competitors completely both in Sunspider and in multitasking. RT destroys Ipad and Android tablets yet because Pro is not here yet the crowd that would purchase that is trying to say us lower level lovers are pointless.

Basically saying Ipad users and Android tablet users are also losers in the process.