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Forums - Politics Discussion - Roll back Reagan tax cuts.

insomniac17 said:
Marks said:

What do you even mean by that? 

Taxes are by definition theft:

[...]

The argument depends on how you view property rights. If the government is the legitimate owner of the territory it controls, then taxes cannot be theft. If the government came to own its territory illegitimately, then taxes are theft. So the question here is, did the government come to own its territory legitimately?


Thank you for a good response. I like reading a valid argument much more than something like "Because taxes aren't theft. It's a simple, categorical thing.

As for a response to your argument, I would have to do some reading first to come up with my own thoughts on the issue. 



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Mr Khan said:
Marks said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Because taxes aren't theft. It's a simple, categorical thing.


What do you even mean by that? 

Taxes are by definition theft:

 

theft

  [theft]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away ofthe personal goods or property of another; larceny.
The only part of that definition you could argue taxes don't fit in with is the word "wrongful". But when my tax dollars go to some stupid program that I don't support and is basically a waste of money, I do consider it wrongful. Foreign Aid and "Nation Building" drive me the most insane because they are millions of tax dollars that are leaving the country and we will never see again. 

 

But "wrongful" is not up to personal opinion. Never has been. To state otherwise annihilates millennia of discourse on ethics, or reverts us to relativism (and relativism is the "Godwin's Law" of ethics debates, so we must avoid it at all costs).

Unless we could successfully build an argument that the social contract itself is flawed, or that there is a point upon which the government is deemed to be no longer legitimate on the whole, and then all of their actions from authority become "wrong." But a government which is legitimate, applying its power and excercising its need to collect funds to accomplish such cannot be "wrong."

Wrongness could also come into play if the government had an amoral means by which to collect taxes, but taxes cannot be amoral so long as the government is legitimate.


Well I do respect the government as legitimate, but I still think a legitimate government can commit wrongful actions. Holding American citizens indefinitely with no warrant or probable cause under the Patriot Act is wrongful, invading a foreign country without a declaration of war from congress is wrongful, and I think that overtaxation is also wrongful. 

America was founded by patriots who wanted rid of the oppressive/overtaxing British monarchy, and now all we've done is replace it by an oppressive/overtaxing president.



Kasz216 said:
mrstickball said:
Kasz216 said:
mrstickball said:
Kasz216 said:

Denmark really isn't the country you want to be using for your argument's.

Denmark is one of the least regulated economies in the world.

Also... the $18 per hour doesn't really take into account PPP... or how people live.

 

Most Americans would be kinda unhappy with the matieral standards Danes have.

That, and the fact that labor mobility and rights are far more lax in Denmark.

Like I've been saying: You can raise taxes back to 1960, if you roll regulations back to 1960. Otherwise, if you simply raise taxes, our economy is going to collapse, because there'll be no incentive for local production.

Denmark really is one of the more intrueing countries in the world for sure.

it's funny when I see people argueing the Denmark system without really knowing how it works.

Reminds me of when Krugman kept praising Iceland's handling of the economy for it's stimulus measures... when if you ask Iceland what saved them, it was that they didn't bail out their banks.

 

Denmark is an extremely fiscally conservative minded society that also happens to believe in high collectivism.  It's funny how not many people can realize that can be a held position.

As great ad the Denmark system works though... it seems to largely work as a byproduct of their culture.  I can't see it actually being a reproduceable model outside of Scandanavia.

Hell France tried it once, didn't work in france.


Do you have any reference material for the model failing in France?

Not offhand, was something they were talking about on NPR a few months back.

They brought in three different french policy makers and had them generally discuss the social saftey net in france.

This was back when France passed the 50% mark for government spending/GDP.

As i recall the main issues were Organized Labor wouldn't go for it, the French people didn't want to live like Danes, less social cohesiveness.

I'd look it up, but honestly X-Com rules so i'm not in the mood for a google delve, if i get some computer time when it's slow tommorrow at work i'll give it a look.


Ah. Was just curious - there've been quite a few socialist French presidents in which to likely establish such a model.

Either way, we've never really seen a large-scale example of the Scandinavian model. its odd that so many socialists point to them as the must-have system, yet no country has had their kind of success outside of......Scandinavia.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Marks said:
Mr Khan said:
Marks said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Because taxes aren't theft. It's a simple, categorical thing.


What do you even mean by that? 

Taxes are by definition theft:

 

theft

  [theft]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away ofthe personal goods or property of another; larceny.
The only part of that definition you could argue taxes don't fit in with is the word "wrongful". But when my tax dollars go to some stupid program that I don't support and is basically a waste of money, I do consider it wrongful. Foreign Aid and "Nation Building" drive me the most insane because they are millions of tax dollars that are leaving the country and we will never see again. 

 

But "wrongful" is not up to personal opinion. Never has been. To state otherwise annihilates millennia of discourse on ethics, or reverts us to relativism (and relativism is the "Godwin's Law" of ethics debates, so we must avoid it at all costs).

Unless we could successfully build an argument that the social contract itself is flawed, or that there is a point upon which the government is deemed to be no longer legitimate on the whole, and then all of their actions from authority become "wrong." But a government which is legitimate, applying its power and excercising its need to collect funds to accomplish such cannot be "wrong."

Wrongness could also come into play if the government had an amoral means by which to collect taxes, but taxes cannot be amoral so long as the government is legitimate.


Well I do respect the government as legitimate, but I still think a legitimate government can commit wrongful actions. Holding American citizens indefinitely with no warrant or probable cause under the Patriot Act is wrongful, invading a foreign country without a declaration of war from congress is wrongful, and I think that overtaxation is also wrongful. 

America was founded by patriots who wanted rid of the oppressive/overtaxing British monarchy, and now all we've done is replace it by an oppressive/overtaxing president.


To be fair, the issue isn't over-taxation, but over-consumption of government services. Government expenditures as a percentage of GDP are at an all-time high, with taxes being at an all-time (since WW2 at least) low.

Furthermore, its not up to the president to tax, but the congress and senate to agree upon the rate, then for the president to sign. Obviously, he has a hand in it, but the legislature is the more powerful entity.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Mr Khan said:

But "wrongful" is not up to personal opinion. Never has been. To state otherwise annihilates millennia of discourse on ethics, or reverts us to relativism (and relativism is the "Godwin's Law" of ethics debates, so we must avoid it at all costs).

Unless we could successfully build an argument that the social contract itself is flawed, or that there is a point upon which the government is deemed to be no longer legitimate on the whole, and then all of their actions from authority become "wrong." But a government which is legitimate, applying its power and excercising its need to collect funds to accomplish such cannot be "wrong."

Wrongness could also come into play if the government had an amoral means by which to collect taxes, but taxes cannot be amoral so long as the government is legitimate.

An act of a legitimate government is not necessarily moral or legal ...

Legitimate governments may have the right to collect a head-tax and (for example) say that every man woman and child was required to pay $10,000/year to cover the cost of running the government or face legal penalties for tax evasion; but I doubt you would see that as either a moral or legal tax.

Ultimately, the "social contract" could be said that the government should be empowered to collect taxes in a reasonable way to cover essential services that only it can provide. When you're dealing with the federal government that essentially means that they can collect taxes to cover national security, international relations and trade, and intranational relations. At the state level different services may be added, and at the municipal level even more services can be added; but these should be funded through taxes collected at these levels.

When you have the federal government collecting tax money to buy votes in different regions or from different demographic groups it can quite fairly be considered theft.



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Marks said:
Mr Khan said:

But "wrongful" is not up to personal opinion. Never has been. To state otherwise annihilates millennia of discourse on ethics, or reverts us to relativism (and relativism is the "Godwin's Law" of ethics debates, so we must avoid it at all costs).

Unless we could successfully build an argument that the social contract itself is flawed, or that there is a point upon which the government is deemed to be no longer legitimate on the whole, and then all of their actions from authority become "wrong." But a government which is legitimate, applying its power and excercising its need to collect funds to accomplish such cannot be "wrong."

Wrongness could also come into play if the government had an amoral means by which to collect taxes, but taxes cannot be amoral so long as the government is legitimate.


Well I do respect the government as legitimate, but I still think a legitimate government can commit wrongful actions. Holding American citizens indefinitely with no warrant or probable cause under the Patriot Act is wrongful, invading a foreign country without a declaration of war from congress is wrongful, and I think that overtaxation is also wrongful. 

America was founded by patriots who wanted rid of the oppressive/overtaxing British monarchy, and now all we've done is replace it by an oppressive/overtaxing president.

Right, but if everyone did not consent to taxation due to one particular thing they didn't like, the whole system would collapse. We citizens work to better the system (unless we find the whole thing intolerable, then we can talk revolution), while contributing to it.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

insomniac17 said:
Mr Khan said:

The founding was 224-225 years ago. Things change. No philosophy is set to endure through all ages, and the 2nd Amendment is biggest proof of that, since the word "militia" is in the name, an artifact of an older time that is no longer needed.

The people "should" ideally assent to this situation. That they do not has shown a failure of education and socialization.

 

From the 2nd Amendment.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

This also clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It does say that a well regulated millitia is necessary, but it specifically states the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed, with no exceptions. That seems pretty clear to me. Now you can argue that it is no longer needed, but I do believe that it is intended to protect the right of people to keep and bear arms, not just for a millitia, but for anything.

---

To the italicized part; should according to whom? What if the social contract forces them to do something that goes against what they believe? Say someone is a pacifist and are completely against war. The government spends a ton of money on war, but according to the social contract, you have to pay taxes. According to them, no one should agree with the social contract because it goes against their beliefs. 

So the social contract's agreeability is subjective and will vary depending on who is asked. Why then, are we trying to enforce an arbitrary system on a group of people who do not agree with it? You can argue that it makes life better for everyone, which is debatable, but what if these people live in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming. They are completely isolated from the rest of the US, and recieve no benefits from the system. Should they be forced to be part of a society they have no desire to join? 

I believe your argument will be that they are on US owned land, and do benefit from things like defense and so they should be forced to. But then if the power to rule comes from the governed, and the people no longer consent to be governed, should they not be within their rights to no longer accept to be ruled by this government that has ceased representing their interests?  

From the Declaration of Independence

 That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. 

I suppose you can argue that if the majority agree to a government, then it doesn't matter what the minority want. But then if the majority decide what the minority can and can't do, what happens if the majority become tyrannical and enslave the minority? That is a danger of majority rule, and could be done completely legitimately (according to the government) through amendments and laws. 

---

Also, your comment that no philosophy is set to endure forever bothers me. Before I comment further, however, can you please define what you mean by philosophy?

Pardon the edit here.  I was going to reply back to Mr. Kahn's post regarding the second amendment, but couldn't find it, so I will chime in here.

My reply is NO it is not out of date.  The message gives the context by which to understand the right.  The context involves "well run militias".  The second amendment has to do with collectively own arms for self-defense, to protect against enemies foreign and domestic.  To not have this as the context turns what works collectively into an individual right and debates over how much is too much.  One can derive having a weapon for personal defense out of this context.  But to remove it from that context, is to open up a can of worms.  And I believe you see in some of the writings of the founding fathers, they expected the citizens to be armed and form a national defense as militias, with the only exception given for people who had religious objects.  Probably the closest thing we can think of now to militias is national guard, or state armies.