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Forums - General - Can a being know if It knows everything?

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flawed argument



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^^^ This.



badgenome said:
If a being is truly omniscient then it knows that it knows everything. Since this knowledge is part of "everything", an omniscient being by definition knows this. You know?


But he can only base this on His knowledge. How does He know if His knowledge truly consists of everything?

Max King of the Wild said:
flawed argument


very persuasive

Because he knows that he knows everything. therefore since he knows he knows everything he knows there can not be anything in category B.

The argument presented is really just saying the same thing over and over again



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Max King of the Wild said:
Because he knows that he knows everything. therefore since he knows he knows everything he knows there can not be anything in category B.

The argument presented is really just saying the same thing over and over again



But he can only base this on His knowledge. How does He know if His knowledge truly consists of everything?

You're right about the repetition though.



Yes and his knowledge, by definition, consists of knowing everything.

Therefore, by definition, he knows there is nothing that he doesn't know.

There is a given. And that given is the being knows everything. All you are saying is "but how does he know" ...welll he knows by definition



Max King of the Wild said:
Yes and his knowledge, by definition, consists of knowing everything.

Therefore, by definition, he knows there is nothing that he doesn't know.

There is a given. And that given is the being knows everything. All you are saying is "but how does he know" ...welll he knows by definition


Just because there is a definition that states something, doesn't mean that something isn't a contradiction.

For example, I could create a word called "Quadratriangle." And I could say a quadratriangle is a traingle with four sides.

Obviously, that's a contradictory idea. And just because there's a definition doesn't mean it's not contradictory.

That's what I'm getting at with omniscience. I'm trying to question whether being omnniscient is even possible. So you can't say something is not contradictory because it has a definition.

And the problem with omniscience is: a being cannot use it's knowledge to prove that it's knowledge is infinite.



wow, I sure did type a lot of fluff in the OP.



Jay520 said:
ninetailschris said:

How doesn't he know? What doesn't it know your just saying he doesn't know x without any reasoning it just seems to be claiming without telling us why. Just saying he doesn't know x doesn't mean he doesn't know x just means you think he doesn't without an actual argument.Seems like the argument falls on you to tells us what this unknown is  without exposing our non-omniscient mind.

Again the defintion tells us he knows everything and you tells us nothing he can't know. You just say he can't know this "unknown" without explaining this unknown besides something made in the mind and not in reality. This unknown your speaking of doesn't exist outside of your mind if we don't know this unknown based on human mind. This whole argument is based on limited mind vs omniscient and by very defintion something you think would be unknown wouldn't be for omniscient. You would have to downplay omniscients for this to work like he can only know what is humanly possible. But it's not so the argument falls apart. There is no reason to think omniscient is false if you take away it's properties. It's a straw man basically.

It doesn't matter if there really is something He doesn't know. The point is He doesn't know if there is something He doesn't know. He may think he knows everything. But He has no way of knowing He knows everything. No being can know what lays beyond His realm of knowledge. I'm not sayying there is something beyond His realm of knowledge. I'm saying He doesn't know if there is something beyond His realm of knowledge. He cannot prove to Himself that there is nothing He doesn't know.

For all He knows, there are dozens of facts He doesn't know. He just doesn't know he doesn't know because...He doesn't know about them. Do all he facts really exists. No being can know. That's the point.

A being may think he's omniscient. But that's only based on His own knowledge - and a being cannot know if His knowledge covers everything that exists. And no, you cannot say He knows everything because He knows everything. That claim is based on the presumption that the being really does know everything, which is impossible to prove.

Again, I'm not asserting that there IS something that exists ouside of an omniscients's mind. I'm asserting that an omniscient cannot know IF there is something which exists outside of His mind. It cannot know if there are things it does not know. And it's illogical for a being to use His knowledge to determine if He knows everything, because He doesn't know if His knowledge is infinite to begin with.

P.S. You don't have to re-quote my entire post. That's the point of quoting in the first place.

 

Sentence 1:What doesn't it know? When did I agree it didn't know something?

Second sentence: omniscient would be based facts as it's to know 100 percent truth of everything so he would again by very defintion know his own knowledge is true. "and a being cannot know if His knowledge covers everything that exists" Wait what tell how this is true statement tell how an omniscient being wouldn't know this? This just came out of nowhere without backing. 

"He may think he knows everything"

Why is this a true statement? Is this again a claim you gave no reason why it's true.

5th sentence: By omniscient is the idea of a being or something not having something beyond his knowledge as he knows EVERYTHING so how does this work? If you know everything then it follows there is nothing beyond your knowledge. Again this downplaying the omniscient. There is no beyond peak of knowledge because it would be incoherent for that to be true because both can't be true.

Rest of paragraph one:

He could prove to itself that it's true by the very fact of the defintion of omniscients if omniscient is true and it has it then he knows what knows is true. Again omniscient can't know be fused if he is omniscient being because he is omniscient being. The only way this argument can work if we assume he isn't omniscient which defeats the point of the argument since it was never omniscient being.

Paragraph 2: Already deal with this with my previous replies in this post and others. Again this assumes an omniscient isn't a omniscient being as if he was omniscient being it wouldn't be a question he would know regardless of the question unless it's just incoherent.

Paragraph 3: Omniscient is a state of being  or nature it's not a thought so if the being is an omniscient then it's not a question if it isn't then he wouldn't by defintion. The rest I covered already.

Paragraph 4: ^ that basically. It's a state of being.  It's not thought. it doesn't think it's omniscient it has to be omniscient being. You're confusing something believing there omniscient and being an omniscient being. The arguement is can an omniscient be omniscient which I pointed out is very possible. 

 





"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max