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Forums - General Discussion - Your "Free" Will is Not Free

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

The concept of free will is very basic. When a man is faced by two or more different alternatives, he supposedly has the ability of independently make a decision. This makes us able to tell him that: "You should not have murdered that man. You could have chosen to not murder him, yet you chose to do it." In other words, we are able to accuse him of making the "wrong" decision. To the great masses all of this is- or at least should be something obvious, but to me this makes no sense.

Let's begin with going through the basics of how to make a decision. A kid goes to the store and is faced with two options: Buying a Coke for one dollar or some candy for at least 50 cent. On one hand, he can save 50 cent by buying candy, but he is also confident that he would enjoy the Coke more since it's a sunny day. In the end though, he goes for the candy since he want to be able to buy candy tomorrow as well. But did the kid make this decision? No. All he did was acting according to personal preference. Had it been more sunny outside, he would probably have made a different decision, but in this case he would prefer to enjoy candy the next day as well. The decision was already made through previous and current sensory input which shaped his preferences. Thus, selecting the Coke was not an option.

This goes for every single decision we make throughout our lives. We search through our past and choose whatever matches our personal preferences the most. We were not ever able to make any decisions independently, because preference is not something you choose. That would be like saying: "Today my favorite colour shall be green." when in reality you know that red will always be your favorite. You can't "choose" otherwise.

This is why I don't think it makes any sense to say that the previously mentioned murderer made the "wrong decision". All he did was to act according to personal preference just like everybody else does every single day. We can say that his actions were awful and that actions need to be made so that he won't do something similar again, but we can't blame him for acting according to preference, just like we can't blame anyone for liking whichever sports team he may prefer.

To sum it up: Every single decision you make is entirely based on your personal preference, which you can't overlook. Humans will always seek for the greatest possible amount of profit through their actions, and whatever that profit consists of is based on that very same personal preference.

The underlying argument is flawed. You think because outside factors influence your decision, that you don't have free will. If the exact same factor forces you into making the same decision 100% of the time without variation, maybe that argument can be made. But YOUR mood can effect the decision you make. How you feel at this moment.

A murderer acts according to personal preference - but most people in a similar circumstance would make a better choice. Look at people who grow up in similar circumstances - do they all turn out very similarly? Not always. Some inner city kids work hard in school despite circumstances and make something of themselves... some get into trouble and become dealers. Every decision they make along the way shapes who they are. And yes, maybe a lot of life is easy to predetermine based on outside influences pushing things in certain directions, but your personal preference is your free will. Whether you choose to act on it, or in the best interests of all parties is always your choice.



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Jereel Hunter said:

The underlying argument is flawed. You think because outside factors influence your decision, that you don't have free will. If the exact same factor forces you into making the same decision 100% of the time without variation, maybe that argument can be made. But YOUR mood can effect the decision you make. How you feel at this moment.

A murderer acts according to personal preference - but most people in a similar circumstance would make a better choice. Look at people who grow up in similar circumstances - do they all turn out very similarly? Not always. Some inner city kids work hard in school despite circumstances and make something of themselves... some get into trouble and become dealers. Every decision they make along the way shapes who they are. And yes, maybe a lot of life is easy to predetermine based on outside influences pushing things in certain directions, but your personal preference is your free will. Whether you choose to act on it, or in the best interests of all parties is always your choice.


You don't choose what mood to have. You don't choose to prefer to act according to your will, or in the best interest of all parties.

The free will is directly dependent on things you can't control.



Galaki said:
How much free will you have depends on how much money you have.

More money, more problems



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Thus, you cannot hate anyone for commiting a crime since all it did was acting according to its preferences just like everybody else does every day.

I can, though, and I do. And since I have no ability to change the way I feel, well, that's just, like, the way I feel, man.



Before posting this I spent some time lying in the floor doing nothing for no reason at all, which is obviously the less profitable action I could choose. How can you explain that?



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Kasz216 said:
Or, I suppose the best way to put it is this.

The majority of evolutionary biologists believe in free will.

If you know what an evolutionary biologist is... that should mean a lot.

And most neuroscientists believe that free will is an illusion. So what?



Player2 said:

Before posting this I spent some time lying in the floor doing nothing for no reason at all, which is obviously the less profitable action I could choose. How can you explain that?


Your profit in this case would be to prove a point.

You say you didn't expect profit though, so you proved nothing.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Player2 said:

Before posting this I spent some time lying in the floor doing nothing for no reason at all, which is obviously the less profitable action I could choose. How can you explain that?


Your profit in this case would be to prove a point.

You say you didn't expect profit though, so you proved nothing.

I did it before knowing about this topic, obviously.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

You don't choose what mood to have. You don't choose to prefer to act according to your will, or in the best interest of all parties.

The free will is directly dependent on things you can't control.


As far as I am concerned THAT is Freedom.  I made a post earlier about how free will is an oxymoron because the concepts of "freedom" and "will" are the exact opposite.  One implies a sense of control and determinism (Will) and the other implies a sense of flexibility and indetermined fate (freedom).  When I don't choose my future, meaning that my mind has the power to be influenced by outside forces, I am free.  Why?  Because my determined direction can be changed at any instance.  That is freedom.  To have great will, the ability not to be influenced by outside forces, one needs characteristics that offer great control (could be money, strength, personality etc.).  I bet each person values freedom and will differently.

In short I don't believe anyone has either complete will or complete freedom, but every person has one more of one than the other.  Some people have more maleable mindsets, and others are more focused.  My main point (more in my other post) is that you guys (everyone) needs to get there shit straight about defining the concept of "free will" before engaging in discussion.  As far as I am concerned we need to be willing to abandon any institutionalized notion of the concept before we think about it.  Not saying my definition is a be-all-end-all either, but at least is tries to deconstruct the concept a little more - and with my version the issue becomes less black and white and not you either have it or you don't.



Player2 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Player2 said:

Before posting this I spent some time lying in the floor doing nothing for no reason at all, which is obviously the less profitable action I could choose. How can you explain that?


Your profit in this case would be to prove a point.

You say you didn't expect profit though, so you proved nothing.

I did it before knowing about this topic, obviously.


People can enjoy doing nothing, obviously. Being lazy and just thinking about stuff is profitable as long as you enjoy it.

If you didn't enjoy doing nothing, you would do something.