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Forums - Politics - The issue isn't that government doesn't work. The issue is that government DOES work...

Kasz216 said:
As for the government working or not working though... if your point is, it works at screwing up... then sure.

Government can theoretically accomplish any one goal, but it's going to screw up a lot of other stuff in the process...

and even then it's not guaranteed to get results... because it might attempt the wrong methods, or in the research case, fund the wrong research.

With so few people deciding where resources are allocated, the chances for mistakes are much higher.

The arguments come down to whether or not a democratically elected entity, that responses to influences and can be subject to the people is better or worse off than a system where decisions are made by people buying and selling.  The main difference between the two is that the democratically elected entity gets inputs uniformly from everyone in the form of one vote, and markets award people with more money, more votes.  Also, in markets, people with little money may have no votes at all.  In the videogame industry, you have a few players.  And in other markets, barriers to entry end up making there be even less players involved.  And with this, there are very few players making all the decisions also.

I will still stand by what I wrote, from the perspective of individuals who petition government effectively.  For such individuals, they get what they want from government.  The government is a genie for them.  Oh, there is consequences, as there are consequences for any complex system of interconnecting parts.  The financial meltdown of recent years is an example of this.



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richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
As for the government working or not working though... if your point is, it works at screwing up... then sure.

Government can theoretically accomplish any one goal, but it's going to screw up a lot of other stuff in the process...

and even then it's not guaranteed to get results... because it might attempt the wrong methods, or in the research case, fund the wrong research.

With so few people deciding where resources are allocated, the chances for mistakes are much higher.

The arguments come down to whether or not a democratically elected entity, that responses to influences and can be subject to the people is better or worse off than a system where decisions are made by people buying and selling.  The main difference between the two is that the democratically elected entity gets inputs uniformly from everyone in the form of one vote, and markets award people with more money, more votes.  Also, in markets, people with little money may have no votes at all.  In the videogame industry, you have a few players.  And in other markets, barriers to entry end up making there be even less players involved.  And with this, there are very few players making all the decisions also.

I will still stand by what I wrote, from the perspective of individuals who petition government effectively.  For such individuals, they get what they want from government.  The government is a genie for them.  Oh, there is consequences, as there are consequences for any complex system of interconnecting parts.  The financial meltdown of recent years is an example of this.

Your overlooking something,

In buying and seling, everybody gets a say... if your part of a niche market you get screwed.

While voting wise, only the majority get a say, outside of a few very specifically decided cases... and then only if your representative actually listens to what you say.


The reason why Gay rights for example have pretty much completely stalled out, is because gay people being such a minority, they need to rely on normal people giving enough of a shit about stuff that doesn't effect them to make things happen.

If the government controlled most of what the free market does and listens to voting, we'd have no restraunts but fastfood, no Movies except "Medea goes to"   etc.

If all that stuff was based on politcians, they'd pick what they want through their point of view, often missing, with no other options.

 

Government is pretty much always going to suffer from

A) Groupthink.

B) One person deciding everything, meaning their failures crash EVERYTHING.



richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Well, it depends on how you define "work". The Government is very good at some things, and terrible at others.

What most people mean by "Government doesn't work" is that increased Government hinders prosperity. The Government itself works fine, it's just a cancer on everything else.

Actually, people who argue that government doesn't work, will end up saying the government does a poor job at things.  Word is "the private sector can do it better".

Well, what I was saying, when it comes to implementing the will of the people influencing government, it is able to end up getting the needed money, distributing it, and using law enforcement to slow down and hinder things it doesn't like.  It doesn't mean the government can completely stop things, as markets tend to skirt around a lot of government action.

I did end up comparing government to a genie, and this would fit.  And I could go further by connecting genie in this context to the Muslim tradition of genie being jinn (genie comes from that).  Genies would be comparable to that of a demon I believe, and I believe in Muslim tradition. there are stories of how genies would end up destroying people by granting them wishes.  If one has issues with government, it would be that the genie (government) keeps granting the wishes of those who call on the genie to do this, and this set of wishes ultimately destroys the wishes of the people.  Evil versions of the genie would do this.  

So, one can end up arguing the government is a genie that can destroy a nation, if it isn't tempered.

But the Government doesn't do most things well. Look at how many things they do that have gone, or will go, bankrupt. And this is despite their ability to confiscate as much wealth as they see fit, through taxation, inflation, and borrowing.

I can't think of a single thing that Government does better than the private sector.



SamuelRSmith said:
richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Well, it depends on how you define "work". The Government is very good at some things, and terrible at others.

What most people mean by "Government doesn't work" is that increased Government hinders prosperity. The Government itself works fine, it's just a cancer on everything else.

Actually, people who argue that government doesn't work, will end up saying the government does a poor job at things.  Word is "the private sector can do it better".

Well, what I was saying, when it comes to implementing the will of the people influencing government, it is able to end up getting the needed money, distributing it, and using law enforcement to slow down and hinder things it doesn't like.  It doesn't mean the government can completely stop things, as markets tend to skirt around a lot of government action.

I did end up comparing government to a genie, and this would fit.  And I could go further by connecting genie in this context to the Muslim tradition of genie being jinn (genie comes from that).  Genies would be comparable to that of a demon I believe, and I believe in Muslim tradition. there are stories of how genies would end up destroying people by granting them wishes.  If one has issues with government, it would be that the genie (government) keeps granting the wishes of those who call on the genie to do this, and this set of wishes ultimately destroys the wishes of the people.  Evil versions of the genie would do this.  

So, one can end up arguing the government is a genie that can destroy a nation, if it isn't tempered.

But the Government doesn't do most things well. Look at how many things they do that have gone, or will go, bankrupt. And this is despite their ability to confiscate as much wealth as they see fit, through taxation, inflation, and borrowing.

I can't think of a single thing that Government does better than the private sector.

You are posting this on the Internet.  The Internet got its birth as a government initiative founded by the Department of Defense, to build a communications network that could withstand a nuclear war.

The private sector didn't produce an Internet.  The private sector gave birth to the likes of AOL, Prodigy and Compuserve.  All of these fell to the wayside by an entity that was birthed by a government initiative.  Nothing the private sector came up with rivals this.

Same could be said about the likes of Spain sponsoring Christopher Columbus discovering the new world.  Private enterprise didn't do this.

GPS is another government invention.  None in the private sector produced this.

Libraries only exist now, due to government funding.

Large initiatives which benefit society almost never come about strictly from private sector involvement.  There are things that the private sector can't even get near at all, because it isn't in the interest of the private sector to do it.  Later on, once established, it is entirely possible for the private sector to take it over.  But the public sector is the one that kicks it off.



richardhutnik said:

You are posting this on the Internet.  The Internet got its birth as a government initiative founded by the Department of Defense, to build a communications network that could withstand a nuclear war.

The private sector didn't produce an Internet.  The private sector gave birth to the likes of AOL, Prodigy and Compuserve.  All of these fell to the wayside by an entity that was birthed by a government initiative.  Nothing the private sector came up with rivals this.

Same could be said about the likes of Spain sponsoring Christopher Columbus discovering the new world.  Private enterprise didn't do this.

GPS is another government invention.  None in the private sector produced this.

Libraries only exist now, due to government funding.

Large initiatives which benefit society almost never come about strictly from private sector involvement.  There are things that the private sector can't even get near at all, because it isn't in the interest of the private sector to do it.  Later on, once established, it is entirely possible for the private sector to take it over.  But the public sector is the one that kicks it off.


You're asking me to rewrite history. Fact is, we have no idea whether these things would have happened with or without Government, or whether similar alternatives would have emerged. We also do not know all of the technologies that we could have been enjoying today, if the private sector had not been stifled.



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SamuelRSmith said:
richardhutnik said:

You are posting this on the Internet.  The Internet got its birth as a government initiative founded by the Department of Defense, to build a communications network that could withstand a nuclear war.

The private sector didn't produce an Internet.  The private sector gave birth to the likes of AOL, Prodigy and Compuserve.  All of these fell to the wayside by an entity that was birthed by a government initiative.  Nothing the private sector came up with rivals this.

Same could be said about the likes of Spain sponsoring Christopher Columbus discovering the new world.  Private enterprise didn't do this.

GPS is another government invention.  None in the private sector produced this.

Libraries only exist now, due to government funding.

Large initiatives which benefit society almost never come about strictly from private sector involvement.  There are things that the private sector can't even get near at all, because it isn't in the interest of the private sector to do it.  Later on, once established, it is entirely possible for the private sector to take it over.  But the public sector is the one that kicks it off.


You're asking me to rewrite history. Fact is, we have no idea whether these things would have happened with or without Government, or whether similar alternatives would have emerged. We also do not know all of the technologies that we could have been enjoying today, if the private sector had not been stifled.

We can look at where AOL and others were at the time, and see how they approached networks and doing that.  The whole interconnectivity just isn't there now.  The funding to get it off the ground wasn't either.  The closest comparison we have to the Internet is cell phone companies, and their products now have to compete with the Internet.

The issue you are running into is that you are not able to come up with equivalents to what government initiatives have done.  You can't justify your claim that there is NOTHING that government does that the private sector can't do better.  And that is a problem, because you can't present evidence for your claim.  The reality is that they didn't do it at all.

And the Internet has NOTHING to do with the private sector being stifled.  The government didn't go in and block AOL, or Prodigy or Compuserve.  If these solutions would of been better than the Internet, they would of existed in their old form, but they don't.  They lost in the market to an initiative that the government offered.  It is an initiative that is also complete with the net neutrality act and government involvement to level the playing field.



richardhutnik said:

And here, I see the usual modern conservative argument against government, and thus to shrink it, is that government doesn't work.  The claim is, because government doesn't work, it should be shrunk, so that citizens would then be free to get real solutions that would benefit them.

I would say this is a false claim.  The issue isn't that government doesn't work, but the reality that it does.  It is because it works that people turn to it and use it.  Well, what is the context for my saying this?  Well, as follows:

* Government passes laws that restrict people.  Government regulation, with enforcement, can end up driving people out of business.  It can also put people in prison.  It can also declare wars and execute people.  

* Government can both have its central bank increase money supply, and tax, and get any money it needs to complete anything that it has agreed to via its government processes.  It can end up landing someone on the mood, build infrastructure (like the Internet), and do a number of other things, like employing every person who is without a job, doing anything.  Government could, for example, spend money into existence, and accomplish anything it wants.

* In keeping with the last point, the government can end up getting people and organization whatever money they want, via subsidies and other handouts.  There are entire organizations that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for government spending.  Heck, there are entire industries that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for government spending.

* Government can fund research also, and if it is possible by the laws of nature, eventually make anything manifest itself in time.

So, as seen here, governments do work.  They can accomplish anything just about.  Maybe they don't do it optimally, and maybe in some cases, there are better options. But the reality is that governments are a fairly sure be to get things done, and safer than other ways actually, because they don't face limitations on resources and use of force that other areas do.  If it weren't so, do people think  business and other organizations wouldn't be lobbying as much as they do, and throwing money at elections?  The reality is that those who are successful at lobbying get what their hearts desire in the end.  Government is like a giant genie for them that grants them wishes, their every wish.

Now, where should the debate be then, for those who want smaller government.  Well, it should be to realize that governments do work, and realize why those who want smaller government have the problems with governments working.  They should realize that the body politic loves having the genie of government available to them, and knows that individuals who are lucky enough to get the government to respond, make out real well.  This seduction of power people don't want to give up, and when you cry for less government, you then hit the harsh reality of hitting specifics that if you mention, will result in conversation ending with the person you are persuading.  End result is that you have to speak in terms about "smaller government" in ways that are vague, because you lose people when you talk specifics.  You aren't going to get enough people to go with you, if you start to name WHAT you want the government to do less of.

And those who cry for smaller government should realize this that the cries for "freedom" and "liberty" are because government HAS been working in areas that prevent someone from them really doing what they want.  It is NOT because government doesn't work, it is because it does work.  Sometimes the genie, powered by public opinion, will turn on people and their personal wishes.  And real cries of "government doesn't work" is actually a cry for MORE government (done better mine you), not LESS government.

I am not really understanding what you mean by "government works." You offer as evidence of this the fact that people turn to the government for help as proof that the government is effective. The problem here is that this does not prove that government is effective, it merely proves that people are forced to utilize it. If there is only one company that provides a service then everyone will flock to that company, but it does not necessarily mean that the company is doing a quality job ... they have a monopoly and with that comes stagnation and poor service (no need to innovate when people have to buy from you regardless). The government is by definition  a monopoly on the use of force and, thus, will always be inefficient at best and an outright failure at worst.

Think about any nationalized government service whether it be police, healthcare, or the post office and you will see a model of inefficiency precisely because there is no incentive for these organizations to be efficient ... government has made it illegal for competition to exist. Whether your or happy with any government service or not it really doesn't matter to them as you are forced at gun point to subsidize them so your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. Compare this with private sector services like restaurants that are constantly developing new and innovative ways to attract customers by offering new services and products that give them an edge in a competitive market. It is precisely because government is not involved in these industries (that is to say force and violence is not involved in them) that we get so many wonderful innovations like the computers we are using to post in this forum for example or the mostly free Internet we are using (probably won't be free for long as SOPA and other things will come back like they always do).

This is just a taste of what is wrong with government, and I am not even getting into the moral arguments against it such as the obvious fact that government is coercive entity that rules by force, and not by consent (the only people who can claim to have consented to the U.S. are the original framers of the Constitution. The original framers do mention that the government, inthe case of the U.S. that is, was meant to benefit their posterity, but that can no way be seen as consent for anyone aside from those original framers.

I could go on, but I think that covers the basics. Government does not "work" and it never has if we define "work" as being a positive and beneficial force in human history. It is just another relic from humanities violent past much like slavery, and the world will be much better off when it is finally done away with.



Growth in size, power, and expenditure of the government tends to be driven by good intentions; and (as the saying goes) "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" ... The reason for this is unintended consequences of action on a governmental level tend to create results that are greater in scale and run in opposition to the intended results.

The primary example of this is welfare. Prior to the war on poverty beginning in the 1960s, the poverty rate was steadily falling and the distribution of income became more equitable. With the introduction of welfare the government began subsidizing bad behaviour on a wide scale, and further complicated this by building housing projects to concentrate the consequences. The net result is a generation of children with poor parents and no role models who grew up in an environment with low expectations; and these children grew up to the be the drug addicted neglectful and abusive parents of the gang-bangers and junkies that have infested the crime filled hell that the housing projects became in the 1980s/1990s and still remain today.

In an ideal world where the government is managed like a charity, venture capitalist and bank with no politics or corruption a lot of good could come from government spending; in the real world government intervention to solve any problem typically makes it worse.



HappySqurriel said:
Growth in size, power, and expenditure of the government tends to be driven by good intentions; and (as the saying goes) "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" ... The reason for this is unintended consequences of action on a governmental level tend to create results that are greater in scale and run in opposition to the intended results.

The primary example of this is welfare. Prior to the war on poverty beginning in the 1960s, the poverty rate was steadily falling and the distribution of income became more equitable. With the introduction of welfare the government began subsidizing bad behaviour on a wide scale, and further complicated this by building housing projects to concentrate the consequences. The net result is a generation of children with poor parents and no role models who grew up in an environment with low expectations; and these children grew up to the be the drug addicted neglectful and abusive parents of the gang-bangers and junkies that have infested the crime filled hell that the housing projects became in the 1980s/1990s and still remain today.

In an ideal world where the government is managed like a charity, venture capitalist and bank with no politics or corruption a lot of good could come from government spending; in the real world government intervention to solve any problem typically makes it worse.

Correlation is not causality.   One can't just say that because there was government doing welfare that meant that suddenly families broke down.  Families broke down in middle and upper class to.  The sexual revolution happened in the 1960s also.  Catholic Church would argue that birth control was a major factor also, saying they predicted this would happen.  One could then also argue that the drug war drove people to do more drugs, and argue the prohibition side also.  And on this, some would argue you are wrong on the causality side, and also outcome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty#Table_of_poverty_levels_pre_and_post_welfare

http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=22&p=2

This being said, government is working for someone, even if it were special interests.  Someone is getting rewarded for it, or there would be an attempt to grow it.  Someone gets the extra money reallocated.  Someone happens to get benefits from restricting things.  There is a payout, with desires outcomes, so it continues.  



richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Growth in size, power, and expenditure of the government tends to be driven by good intentions; and (as the saying goes) "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" ... The reason for this is unintended consequences of action on a governmental level tend to create results that are greater in scale and run in opposition to the intended results.

The primary example of this is welfare. Prior to the war on poverty beginning in the 1960s, the poverty rate was steadily falling and the distribution of income became more equitable. With the introduction of welfare the government began subsidizing bad behaviour on a wide scale, and further complicated this by building housing projects to concentrate the consequences. The net result is a generation of children with poor parents and no role models who grew up in an environment with low expectations; and these children grew up to the be the drug addicted neglectful and abusive parents of the gang-bangers and junkies that have infested the crime filled hell that the housing projects became in the 1980s/1990s and still remain today.

In an ideal world where the government is managed like a charity, venture capitalist and bank with no politics or corruption a lot of good could come from government spending; in the real world government intervention to solve any problem typically makes it worse.

Correlation is not causality.   One can't just say that because there was government doing welfare that meant that suddenly families broke down.  Families broke down in middle and upper class to.  The sexual revolution happened in the 1960s also.  Catholic Church would argue that birth control was a major factor also, saying they predicted this would happen.  One could then also argue that the drug war drove people to do more drugs, and argue the prohibition side also.  And on this, some would argue you are wrong on the causality side, and also outcome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty#Table_of_poverty_levels_pre_and_post_welfare

http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=22&p=2

This being said, government is working for someone, even if it were special interests.  Someone is getting rewarded for it, or there would be an attempt to grow it.  Someone gets the extra money reallocated.  Someone happens to get benefits from restricting things.  There is a payout, with desires outcomes, so it continues.  

The graphs you're choosing are cherry picked timelines, after all why use 1960 to 1991 or 1970 to 1997 when the data we have starts in 1950 and is still collected today in 2012? If you look at the longer timeline you can see exactly what happened ...

Industrialization reduced poverty, welfare had nothing to do with it. Many European countries were delayed compared the the United States because of the time needed to recover from the destruction caused by World War 2.

 

As for the breakdown in family structure ... before welfare changed it, a man would be pressured to marry a woman he "got" pregnant. As you can probably imagine, a man who "ruined" his life by being forced into a marriage he didn't want was highly motivated to prevent his sons and/or daughters from following in his footsteps. As you can see from the following graph the rise in teen pregnancies begins at the same time as the war on poverty began