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Forums - Politics - Cut the taxes of rich conservatives, and raise them on all liberals. Problem solved!

Kasz216 said:
zimbawawa said:


VAT is a universal tax, I was referring to the latter which targets a specific group. Its a reasonably sound proposal. Have to do a bit of research to see if any traction has been made thus far, but it looks like a case where sheer political will is needed.

Well it's not like that's never happened before.

Sweden had a Financial Transactions tax for a while.

It ended up creating such a drop in trading that the tax ended up being "Revenue neutral"...

it ended up greatly hurting their stock market, only returning to form when the market tax was lifted.

So, I'm a little curious as to why people think it's a good idea... though if your wondering why Sweden is against such a tax...

that's why.  They implemented one it caused their stockmarket to plunge until they removed it.

If you want to stop high frequncy trading there are much better ways to do so.  Espeically since a LOT of high frequency trades get canceled before the order gets filled.  Which is often what's seen as the "Distorting" aspect.

Well Sweden is one example, it doesn't mean the idea is not feasible with other countries. Hell, even some countries have already adopted this idea in one form or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_transaction_tax

.



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Kasz216 said:
Well it's not like that's never happened before.

Sweden had a Financial Transactions tax for a while.

It ended up creating such a drop in trading that the tax ended up being "Revenue neutral"...

it ended up greatly hurting their stock market, only returning to form when the market tax was lifted.

So, I'm a little curious as to why people think it's a good idea... though if your wondering why Sweden is against such a tax...

that's why.  They implemented one it caused their stockmarket to plunge until they removed it.

If you want to stop high frequncy trading there are much better ways to do so.  Espeically since a LOT of high frequency trades get canceled before the order gets filled.  Which is often what's seen as the "Distorting" aspect.

It seems to me that that proves that the Swedes set it up incorrectly. Indeed, even the wikipedia page on it makes the point: "The Swedish FTT is widely considered a failure. The fact that only local brokerage services were taxed is in the literature seen as the main design problem of the Swedish system. Avoiding the tax only required using foreign broker services."

I'm betting that they also applied capital gains tax to pre-tax profits, and not net profits, but I'm not sure where I'd have to look to confirm one way or the other. If they did as I suspect, it would have meant that people would be taxed for capital gains even if they lost money after the transactions tax. Also, from what I can see, Sweden's tax system is bizarrely complex. It doesn't help that I don't speak Swedish, though, so it might just be bad translation on google translate's part.

It's also worth noting that, even now, the US technically has a financial transactions tax - it's at 0.0034%. It doesn't seem to be hurting the system in the US, even though the Swedish system didn't recover until the entire tax was removed (not when it was dropped to 0.002-0.003%).

I provided some quick mathematics in my previous post... and it showed why a 1% tax is probably too big - if someone traded just once each day, they end up losing about 97% of the money to transaction taxes. That's clearly overkill. At 0.1%, it's 30.6% of their money that goes to transaction tax if they make one per day. I'd say that somewhere between 0.01% and 0.1% is a reasonable range to look at, for such a tax, discouraging but not eliminating moderately-high-frequency trading, and only serving to completely remove very-high-frequency trading.

These things can't be treated in isolation. The tax system has to be treated as a whole, and not as individual parts. Adding a certain type of tax without appropriate alteration of the whole system to make it work correctly can screw with economies. The same can be said of tax cuts, by the way.



Aielyn said:
Kasz216 said:
Well it's not like that's never happened before.

Sweden had a Financial Transactions tax for a while.

It ended up creating such a drop in trading that the tax ended up being "Revenue neutral"...

it ended up greatly hurting their stock market, only returning to form when the market tax was lifted.

So, I'm a little curious as to why people think it's a good idea... though if your wondering why Sweden is against such a tax...

that's why.  They implemented one it caused their stockmarket to plunge until they removed it.

If you want to stop high frequncy trading there are much better ways to do so.  Espeically since a LOT of high frequency trades get canceled before the order gets filled.  Which is often what's seen as the "Distorting" aspect.

It seems to me that that proves that the Swedes set it up incorrectly. Indeed, even the wikipedia page on it makes the point: "The Swedish FTT is widely considered a failure. The fact that only local brokerage services were taxed is in the literature seen as the main design problem of the Swedish system. Avoiding the tax only required using foreign broker services."

I'm betting that they also applied capital gains tax to pre-tax profits, and not net profits, but I'm not sure where I'd have to look to confirm one way or the other. If they did as I suspect, it would have meant that people would be taxed for capital gains even if they lost money after the transactions tax. Also, from what I can see, Sweden's tax system is bizarrely complex. It doesn't help that I don't speak Swedish, though, so it might just be bad translation on google translate's part.

It's also worth noting that, even now, the US technically has a financial transactions tax - it's at 0.0034%. It doesn't seem to be hurting the system in the US, even though the Swedish system didn't recover until the entire tax was removed (not when it was dropped to 0.002-0.003%).

I provided some quick mathematics in my previous post... and it showed why a 1% tax is probably too big - if someone traded just once each day, they end up losing about 97% of the money to transaction taxes. That's clearly overkill. At 0.1%, it's 30.6% of their money that goes to transaction tax if they make one per day. I'd say that somewhere between 0.01% and 0.1% is a reasonable range to look at, for such a tax, discouraging but not eliminating moderately-high-frequency trading, and only serving to completely remove very-high-frequency trading.

These things can't be treated in isolation. The tax system has to be treated as a whole, and not as individual parts. Adding a certain type of tax without appropriate alteration of the whole system to make it work correctly can screw with economies. The same can be said of tax cuts, by the way.

You made my post seem so lazy. lol

Definitely agree with the bolded.



That's Politicsist!



happydolphin said:
That's Politicsist!

The term is actually Partisan.



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TWRoO said:
I say we eliminate all rich people, then burn all their assets. Then the assets of everyone else will be worth more.


How about we burn the assets of the politicians who rob us blind by destroying our currency?  Rich people run businesses that employ people.  The "I hate rich people argument" is lost on me, unless you're specifically referring to cronies that are ripping people off, or businesses that get contracts or are involved with government.  Politicians and bureaucrat busy-bodies rip us off, not "rich people". 



 

Aielyn said:
happydolphin said:
That's Politicsist!

The term is actually Partisan.

I was actually kidding. *boinx*



Aielyn said:
Kasz216 said:
Well it's not like that's never happened before.

Sweden had a Financial Transactions tax for a while.

It ended up creating such a drop in trading that the tax ended up being "Revenue neutral"...

it ended up greatly hurting their stock market, only returning to form when the market tax was lifted.

So, I'm a little curious as to why people think it's a good idea... though if your wondering why Sweden is against such a tax...

that's why.  They implemented one it caused their stockmarket to plunge until they removed it.

If you want to stop high frequncy trading there are much better ways to do so.  Espeically since a LOT of high frequency trades get canceled before the order gets filled.  Which is often what's seen as the "Distorting" aspect.

It seems to me that that proves that the Swedes set it up incorrectly. Indeed, even the wikipedia page on it makes the point: "The Swedish FTT is widely considered a failure. The fact that only local brokerage services were taxed is in the literature seen as the main design problem of the Swedish system. Avoiding the tax only required using foreign broker services."

I'm betting that they also applied capital gains tax to pre-tax profits, and not net profits, but I'm not sure where I'd have to look to confirm one way or the other. If they did as I suspect, it would have meant that people would be taxed for capital gains even if they lost money after the transactions tax. Also, from what I can see, Sweden's tax system is bizarrely complex. It doesn't help that I don't speak Swedish, though, so it might just be bad translation on google translate's part.

It's also worth noting that, even now, the US technically has a financial transactions tax - it's at 0.0034%. It doesn't seem to be hurting the system in the US, even though the Swedish system didn't recover until the entire tax was removed (not when it was dropped to 0.002-0.003%).

I provided some quick mathematics in my previous post... and it showed why a 1% tax is probably too big - if someone traded just once each day, they end up losing about 97% of the money to transaction taxes. That's clearly overkill. At 0.1%, it's 30.6% of their money that goes to transaction tax if they make one per day. I'd say that somewhere between 0.01% and 0.1% is a reasonable range to look at, for such a tax, discouraging but not eliminating moderately-high-frequency trading, and only serving to completely remove very-high-frequency trading.

These things can't be treated in isolation. The tax system has to be treated as a whole, and not as individual parts. Adding a certain type of tax without appropriate alteration of the whole system to make it work correctly can screw with economies. The same can be said of tax cuts, by the way.


That's because the US tax  isn't noticeable.  The few countries that still have noticeable ones... aren't exactly strongholds of trading. 

And as for the local brokerage point... well, that's really all you can do.  Afterall that's why despite germanys prodding almost nobody wants to go at it in a smaller group.  They know if they do, those who refuse to go with it will reap big economic gains.

 

There are MUCH better policies for eliminating high frequency trading.

Something as simple as forcing a position to be held for 1 minute would do more to stop high frequency trading then any tax would.

Or allow stocks to be traded in fractions of cents.

Also like I said before, I'm neither for tax raises or cuts.  I think both are fairly useless, with one slightly more damaging then the other.

What keeps economies running smooth is consistency.



Kasz216 said:

That's because the US tax  isn't noticeable.  The few countries that still have noticeable ones... aren't exactly strongholds of trading.

And as for the local brokerage point... well, that's really all you can do.  Afterall that's why despite germanys prodding almost nobody wants to go at it in a smaller group.  They know if they do, those who refuse to go with it will reap big economic gains.

 

There are MUCH better policies for eliminating high frequency trading.

Something as simple as forcing a position to be held for 1 minute would do more to stop high frequency trading then any tax would.

Or allow stocks to be traded in fractions of cents.

Also like I said before, I'm neither for tax raises or cuts.  I think both are fairly useless, with one slightly more damaging then the other.

What keeps economies running smooth is consistency.

How do you define a "stronghold of trading"? I note that Taiwan and Switzerland both have a "noticeable" tax... but I have no metric to determine if you would consider them to be "strongholds of trading".

And as I pointed out, Sweden's system didn't recover until the tax was removed entirely in 1990, despite the fact that, in 1989, they reduced it to lower than the US one. So apparently, it wasn't the "noticeability" of the tax that was the issue.

Another thing to note is that Sweden applied the tax to Swedes, not to the transactions themselves. This encouraged "offshoring" (as Wikipedia puts it, "Avoiding the tax only required using foreign broker services"). Had they instead applied it to transactions within Sweden, it would have worked just like a sales tax, and not have had such an extreme effect.

And you seem to contradict yourself when you reject the US's instance of the tax as "not noticeable", while simultaneously arguing that forcing trading to only be able to occur at one minute intervals would help to address high frequency trading. Applying the tax at 0.003% (the US tax is higher than that), and assuming just one trade per minute for the duration of a year, you would be left with just 0.000014% of the money left over at the end of it (the rest would go to taxes). Even one trade every six minutes results in only keeping just over 20% (just under 80% go to taxes).

Indeed, in order for just half of the money to go to tax, you would only have to trade once every 22.75 minutes. So clearly, such a tax would pretty much work the same way as your assertion, in that regard. As another way to put it, at 0.003% tax, if they were to undertake a trade once every minute for 24 hours, they would lose 4.23% of their money to tax.

So no, the US tax is definitely noticeable.

What keeps economies running smoothly is appropriate regulation. When governments strip the regulation away, you get massive corruption and massive financial crises. After all, the GFC's root cause was the repeal of Glass-Steagall (and other such removals of regulations).



richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Doesn't this already exist? If you don't think you're being taxed enough, cut a check to the treasury.

Funny thing about this.  Almost everyone doesn't think they pay too little taxes on a personal level.  But they feel that the upper class, rich, and corporations, pay too low taxes.  A decent percentage also feel that the poor don't pay enough (over 20%):

 http://www.gallup.com/poll/1714/taxes.aspx

 

Most people feel what they pay now is fair though.  That is the thing, no one thinks that they don't pay enough.  The thing is that paying the government isn't something done for giggles in its own right, but to do things with it.

Ah, so liberals just want to tax everybody else more, and not themselves.

And, yet, to the people on the streets, I'd be the selfish one, because I'd want to eliminate all the tax that they pay.