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Forums - Politics - Is "the rich getting richer" a problem?

Chark said:
kaneada said:

There is one part of this argument that really doesn't make sense to me, so help me out here. The rich, no doubt, invest money into stocks and bonds, and that money is in turn turned into loans that are often taken by the middle class; but if the middle class debt to income ratio is high (which is the case in America) then it doesn't matter how much money there is to loan to the middle class. Loans will get rejected based on this.

With that being said, there is nothing wrong with some wealth being distributed as loans in this system, it is one way that middle class prospers, but this does not help the overall economy, which there is data that indicates that the average wealthy person spends in the same range on services and goods as the average middle class consumer. When you consider that gains for the wealthy have raised steadily and substatially over the last 30 years, and wages for the middle class have stagnated over that same period of time, a problem with the current implementation of trickle down economics starts to show its flaws. A job that paid 45K in 1980 only pays marginally better today while if the rate of increase that existed in the 1970's held true then that job would pay around 94k a year, which would maintain with the rate of inflation.)

The point I'm making is not that rich shouldn't get richer, and its not that the rich don't invest in the middle class, its that they are not investing evenly. Placing money in stocks and bonds, does invest money into companies which could be used for job creation; however, if consumer demand is low why would that company create jobs that only hurt their bottom line? That would be a waste of invested money. Instead if those investments were placed into employee salaries, then the middle class that would profit from that would be able to invest in loans, services, and goods, which would in turn spark comany growth, job creation, and higher bottom lines for these companies.

 

To answer that I would suggest an area leading to this situation is the lack of support in our education system. More people than ever before are entering college and a degree has never been as important in the workforce than it is today. Even so, education has been the scapegoat target of governmental spending effectively leading to regressive taxation through the elimination of benefits.

Let me explain, the typcial college student is entering a stage in their life when they become self dependant and financially self-reliant. With the reduction of education spending that cost now exists where it previously did not. While one can simply choose not to attend college, the inherent need is built in. Some students have the benefit of parental support to cover tuition but those costs are mearly being transferred over to the middle income families, as the lower income students despite receiving more funding through grants retain the costs in the form of debt, creating a economic group with negative net worth. This creates problems with the loaning system and loans are not within reach to many that are educated and willing to start businesses. 

Essentially maintaining a tax system that shifts the rich gets richer effect down the economic scale encourages growth, while keeping the bar high leads to stagnation and debt. Providing cheap, affordable, and perhaps free eduction allows for more opportunity for individuals. It is far more important that we fund that with our tax dollars than it is to have them be used as a welfare system that simply lets those we've left behind through mismanagement survive. We can't reduce wealfare if we are keeping everyone in the poor house.

First off, very good argument! There are points in your response that I did not adress and would like to take the opportunity to do so.

It seems that the key factors your touching on is taxation, the educational system and its waining benefit for the lower and middle class and there are many point where you are spot on in your analysis. I sympathise with the expenses placed on college students. Having been one in the last six years, I know what it means to have a loan in my name that is effectly as large as a mortage on 3/4 of a house which is effectly 25% larger than my salary thanks to rising interest. It's a tough place to be in, when you are sustaining a lifestyle below your actual means because you are having to pay on such a subtantial amount of money.

With that being said, I do question whether the debt is the problem, or if paying skilled workers what they are actually worth is the real problem. As I had noted in my previous reponse, middle class wages have stagnated. It is safe to say that any job a middle class worker holds now, pays about the same amount of money as it would 20 years ago despite there being substantial growth in gains for the wealthy. While I maintain that trickle down economics has been an abject failure in terms of generating prosperity for the middle class, I'm wondering if the lack of taxation on the rich is actually the largest problem we face as middle class and or lower class.

It seems that there are a few different approches to this. The obvious one is to cut taxes for the middle class while the wealthy are given the heaviest extent of the tax burden. This was the same method used to generate a middle class post The Great Depression. According to figures I have observed, during the 1940's, the upper class were paying nearly 90% of their income into the tax burden a year; but, let's face facts, things are nowhere near that bad. While this strategy would certainly free up income for the middle class, given them more disposable income to spend which would help the economy, I don't see this doing anything for growth of wages. What I would fear in this situation, is that wages for the middle class would maintain, while this heavy tax burden would continue to fall back onto the middle class 40 or 50 years down the road, which was the trend I observed in tax rates.

What we need is a middle class that grows proportionally with the size of the economy. If the housing crisis that started this mess is any indication, there was a substantially disparity between the amount of money a middle class person was making, and the size of the loans they were receiving to purchase houses. Add in the sliding scale interest rates on these loans, it really didn't take much for a once booming market to collapse starting this chain reaction. The question is how to rebuild the middle class so this disparity doesn't exist which lowers the risk of this happening again.

First off yes, I think the Federal Tax burden does need to be shifted onto the wealthiest Americans and certainly larger buisnesses while decreasing the percentage of this burden on smaller buisnesses and the middle class worker. This will help put money back into the middle class and as I have established in an earlier response (not this one) my contention is that the middle class are the real job creators. However, there is a secondary problem that needs to be handled which is making sure the middle class grows with the econmy once this process has begun. As I've stated this can be handled by simple supply and demand. Once the middle class has the money to buy services and goods at a more substantial rate, this will start to grow need for jobs, which will put middle and lower class Americans to work as a result of the product demand.

An investment in education is necessary, but I am not sure that the current system is sustainable or really relevant. I subscribe to the idea that the educational systems primariy goal is to train workers and not to teach people to think and think critically. This is perhaps a larger problem than the amount of student debt a student will absorb.

I still think my argument remains that perhaps investments made by large companies and wealthy individuals into stocks and bonds may not have the impact necessary to promote economic growth at this point and the best investment would be in increasing the pay of skilled workers. This would help increase the amount of disposable income for investment into services and goods which would build the economy and would increase the overal gains of the wealthy. With that being said, there should be a point in time where investments should also increase, but that should be something further down the road and not something done today.

Perhaps its a bit idealistic, but I do believe there is a win win. The bottom line: The rich can get richer as long as they are doing so on bolstering the poor and middle class.



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As the 1 said, rich getting richer? Not really a problem. Poor getting poorer, that's the real problem.



SamuelRSmith said:
richardhutnik said:
Aielyn said:
SamuelRSmith said:

It seems, on top of everything else, the rich also took away the left's ability to use the enter key.

I'm not sure to whom you are reacting, but here's a little pro tip: multiple sentences are allowed to be strung together when they follow the same basic point. They're called "paragraphs". I advise you to learn about them, they're advantageous to formation of arguments.

I am going to push this in the realm of Godwin's Law, by using the word "grammar Nazi".  You know you are running into inane territory when suddenly a thread gets into nitpicking grammar, and language structure used, in an attempt to score points.  Unless the subject is about the use of grammar, this is a line that really doesn't add anything to the thread.  A discussion is not a sport you score points on and win.  It, ideally, should provide illumination.


Just a joke, my man. Haven't even read the thread. Just scrolling through the posts and saw the same images that I see posted in every thread, nowadays, followed by walls of text with a load of capitals.

Not even gonna read that shit, let alone respond to it.

I am getting to a place I see people increasingly claim the comedian defense when they aren't saying something that is funny.  Sorry I didn't read it as an attempt at humor, but more as a shot at liberals collectively failing to use punctuation properly.  Part of the reason for me missing it is that people actually end up trying to score points in discussions like this to win arguments by picking on things regarding grammar.  Anyhow, sorry I failed to read what you wrote as a joke.



Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
I don't think it's a case of the rich getting richer which is the issue, the rich will nearly always get richer. The key issue is when the rich are getting at the expense of others. So for example the board of directors are getting richer by making everyone work longer, for the same or less and by giving each worker ever more tasks without hiring more staff. So while in a way they've made the company more efficient and cost effective, this only really benefits them and no one else. The Government isn't collecting more taxes, the workers aren't getting paid more and society barely benefits from this approach. The only possible benefit is with the extra money the directors are paying themselves they will have more money to spend say on luxury or other items.

Actually, if they the empoyees are workin longer for the same amount and the employers are making more money.  The government is getting more in taxes.

Additionally, say the employees are working for less... and the employers are just "stealing" that money.... the government still gets more in taxes thanks to progressive taxation.

Depends really. The extra money the Directors make could be paid as dividends which is taxed at a lot less than what the Government would tax on a salary.  Or it could be retained earnings in which case there's no tax provided it is invested back into the company.



Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
I don't think it's a case of the rich getting richer which is the issue, the rich will nearly always get richer. The key issue is when the rich are getting at the expense of others. So for example the board of directors are getting richer by making everyone work longer, for the same or less and by giving each worker ever more tasks without hiring more staff. So while in a way they've made the company more efficient and cost effective, this only really benefits them and no one else. The Government isn't collecting more taxes, the workers aren't getting paid more and society barely benefits from this approach. The only possible benefit is with the extra money the directors are paying themselves they will have more money to spend say on luxury or other items.

Actually, if they the empoyees are workin longer for the same amount and the employers are making more money.  The government is getting more in taxes.

Additionally, say the employees are working for less... and the employers are just "stealing" that money.... the government still gets more in taxes thanks to progressive taxation.

Depends really. The extra money the Directors make could be paid as dividends which is taxed at a lot less than what the Government would tax on a salary.  Or it could be retained earnings in which case there's no tax provided it is invested back into the company.

If it's retained as earnings the rich aren't getting richer though.

Dividends are a good point.  Though I would point out dividends would also be paid out to other working class/middle class people.

Stockmarket participation rate in the US is extremly high... not even counting things like pension funds.



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Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
I don't think it's a case of the rich getting richer which is the issue, the rich will nearly always get richer. The key issue is when the rich are getting at the expense of others. So for example the board of directors are getting richer by making everyone work longer, for the same or less and by giving each worker ever more tasks without hiring more staff. So while in a way they've made the company more efficient and cost effective, this only really benefits them and no one else. The Government isn't collecting more taxes, the workers aren't getting paid more and society barely benefits from this approach. The only possible benefit is with the extra money the directors are paying themselves they will have more money to spend say on luxury or other items.

Actually, if they the empoyees are workin longer for the same amount and the employers are making more money.  The government is getting more in taxes.

Additionally, say the employees are working for less... and the employers are just "stealing" that money.... the government still gets more in taxes thanks to progressive taxation.

Depends really. The extra money the Directors make could be paid as dividends which is taxed at a lot less than what the Government would tax on a salary.  Or it could be retained earnings in which case there's no tax provided it is invested back into the company.

If it's retained as earnings the rich aren't getting richer though.

Dividends are a good point.  Though I would point out dividends would also be paid out to other working class/middle class people.

Stockmarket participation rate in the US is extremly high... not even counting things like pension funds.

And that, to reference my other JP Morgan thread, where "too big to fail" is now being discussed, is seting up yet another prime situation where if Wall Street goes bat loco, on a larger scale than JP Morgan did again, there will be strong pull for yet another bail out, lest people's life savings get wiped out.



deskpro2k3 said:

 

What do I look like your professor? Use the internet for research. You wont find everything listening to the mainstream media.

 

 

I'm not sure what the mainstream media has to do with this. I just asked you to elaborate and a find a liitle proof on your claims.



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Do not covet thy neighbour's ass. Covetesness is a very powerful desire that does no good. Skill are distributed unevenly, so wealth always will to. 'The rich getting richer' is a socialist cry to hate the rich. Without the rich we would be all living in proverty. A few rich helps society. Just look at the soviet society. Even the poorest in America are richer than 90 percent of the world. Thou shalt no covet, it is bad for you, and the people you are jealous of.



Zappykins said:

Well put!

The US Economy has been on a 30+ year slope where the poor are getting poorer and the rich getting richer.  And yes, it become a problem.  Sometimes it makes a problem that people don't realize, like the obvious crime, but others like health problems aren't so obvious.

Tuberculosis was almost wipe out in the States, but came back largely to AIDS and the homeless - now their are new resistant strains.  You wouldn't think that closing down a homeless shelter would cause the resurgence of a disease, but it did.

To put it in gamer terms, if people don’t have the money to buy high end consoles, then this neg generation will not be much of a step up from this one.

Could you provide me with evidence that the poor are getting poorer?  Because the "poor" nowadays drive around brand new cars while making payments on them, the "poor" nowadays spend $150 a month for their family cell phone plans, the "poor" nowadays go out to eat 2 nights a week, the "poor" nowadays can afford consoles, games, and an Xbox Live subscription, the "poor" can afford fancy televisions in their house.

I don't care what the hell the rich are able to do, people need to get over this whole "poor" and "rich" thing, because "poor" people now have a hell of a lot more shit than they had 30 years ago, and they sure waste enough money on shit they don't need considering they are "poor".

 

Being poor used to actually mean something, but it doesn't now.  Poor people live pretty extravegent lifestyles in the United States.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Lafiel said:

yea the problem is money has gravity, it atracts more money

market regulations and taxation has to keep that in check, because too much money accumulating on some few individuals is bad for the rest

Why is that bad for the rest (Outside of the fact that money buys corruption)?

People say stuff like this all the time, but can never provide any definitive proof.  Prove to me with a definitive argument that people are legitimately worse off when money continues accumulating more and more on a select few (which is actually quite a bit...1% is 3 million Americans).  Prove to me that without this money as it is now, people would somehow be better off.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.