Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: No, it shows that you are unhappy with your situation and would like a change. But the problem is that you don't know what situation you deserve, yet, a request would suggest that you do so. It's like asking God to send an evil person to Hell, even though only God knows if he/she truly deserves it. We're going cricles now. I'll just leave you with this last post unless you want more: Asking for something through prayer is a direct & personal approach to contact God. Do you agree? If you disagree, let me know and I'll explain why latter. If you agree, then keep reading. God appreciates this effort and this could be the effort that influences what a person deserves. Therefore, a prayer can cause change. But not because you are forcing God to do something. And not because you're informing him of new information. God simply likes act of prayer (for reasons already mentioned).

Which is addressed in the OP. If that is true, then praying becomes a tool; the tool to play God. The ability to change other humans' destiny through your belief, and not only actions.

Your opinion on African poverty does not change their situation. Only God's opinion (and therefore actions) does. God will not give you godlike powers.

appolose said: As a Christian who believes the Bible, I've had to try to derive the implications of several of its sayings to make cohesive theologies concerning various topics. With prayer, the Bible does have (of course) several sayings about what one should use it for and what it does. While many users above have pointed out that prayer can help the individual change himself or act as praise and worship, the Bible does seem to imply that requests can be granted, and, furthermore, if they hadn't been asked, they wouldn't have been granted. The Bible also claims an omniscient. omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, which, for me, returns the subject of prayer to the problem posed in the OP: if God knows everything and can do everything, wouldn't He know beforehand about the requests I would make and decide whether or not to do them anyway without my asking? The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time. That was dreadfully ineloquent; ask for clarification if needed.

One can look at what the original post involved and then take the inverse in that, if God's will happens anyway, what is the point of doing anything, but just let God do it?  Why bother to try to help the poor, since God will do it?  There are people who have theological and philosophical beliefs that people deserve where they are (Job, in the Bible, is a strong refutation of this), so there is no point in helping the poor.  Life has to work itself out, and you need to have behavior punished so there is less of it.  Thus, you cut welfare and whatnot, so you get less people on welfare.  It all fits into a form of determinism.

In regards to prayer, it is entirely possible, theologically, to have it that God wants people to ask first, and knows who will ask, and then when asked for it happens.  The involvement with the person in prayer is part of God doing things.  If one assumes that God wants some interaction with the human race, this is how it would work.

What actually is more interesting, and useful, out of this thread, is discussing a main point of the post from an angle of, "Is prayer all that God wants?"  What I believe is seen, and I wrote on prior here, is that there is WAY too much God on the margins in life, that God isn't as real.   The entire "God being real" actually becomes a racket some churches use to get people to attend.  Sunday morning is an entire "God is real" show, that has little to no impact on the rest of the week.  Well, it makes people more evangelically, so they will sign John 3:16 at the end of the work email, but does it make any lasting difference, or can a person say they built a life on what God really wanted?  I believe the discussions of wisdom flow out of this.  Bible says God says to pray for wisdom, so it becomes down to asking God in a time of crisis what to do.  That isn't wisdom, that is a decision.  Wisdom is understanding, and you see in Proverbs where wisdom is not something sought during a crisis, but something sought all the time, because you want understanding.  Of course, this goes over people's heads because they just want a quick fix and get on with their lives.  It all ends up marginal lip service, at best.  Oh yes, there is adoration of Jesus.  

I will go with Bill Maher on this and say merely adoring Jesus makes you a fan, not really a disciple of him:

Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: But you must find a balance between information and simplicity. Changing the title to: "Demanding prayers makes no sense" would also be misleading, and making it even more accurate than that would make it horribly long. Instead, I chose to leave some information out, and then clarified the rest in my OP. How would "Demanding prayers make no sense" be misleading? Are you not arguing that the idea of prayers with demands are flawed? And please, give me this title which you think would be "horribly long".

"Demanding prayers makes no sense" could also suggest that it makes no sense for God to demand prayers from His followers. The longer version would be "Asking God for help makes no sense", which is an excellent title that I just came up with. It probably won't attract as many readers though, so I will be keeping the old one.

By saying "Praying makes no sense" people often thinks of phrases such as 'Say your last prayer', which is the most common context of prayers. That justifies my old title IMO (and no mod has been complaining so far...).

Andrespetmonkey said: Jay520 said: One of the reasons we pray to God is so that we can thank Him for the blessings he's done for us. In a word: Worship. Most people pray to worship & praise our Lord. Now, you're talking about praying to ask for things. That does make sense. We are not praying to inform God of our troubles. He knows this already. We are praying to physically present ourselves as the small weaklings (cant think of a better word right now) that we are. When we get down on our knees and pray, it shows that we know that we are weak and are acknowledging the power of our Lord. When we do this, we act our humbleness, and God likes this. Even if he knows we need help, we must still act on it. He knows we need him. That doesn't mean he'll always act. He wants us to put forth some form of action. To meet him halfway. And sometimes, all we have to do is humbly request help and acknowledge that he is the one who loves us and the one who can help us. And that's all the action he wants, sometimes. So to put it plainly, God just wants you to kiss his arse and he'll help you? I don't understand why a benevolent being would want this, nor do I understand why a perfect being would want anything. But let's say there's a perfectly rational reason as to why God would want this, if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work? And why is practically every claim about an answered prayer something that could happen by chance, or even something that was bound to happen. You could get the worlds population to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back and it wouldn't happen.

I may be mistaken but it looks like you think respectfully asking for something = kissing arse. If this is your stance (and Please correct me if I'm wrong), then I'd have to disagree.

"if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work?"

Good question. I'd say one reason is because: God works in mysterious ways. A person may have a problem and he'll pray for a particular item which he deems the solution to his problem, however, go may give the solution, just in a different manner. For example, a man may have a problem with depression because of paralysis. So he may pray to be able to walk. God may answer his prayer, but if so, it doesn't have to be by granting him the ability to walk. God will try to fix his problem. His problem wasn't paralysis, it was depression. So god my give this man wisdom. Wisdom that he doesn't need to walk to have joy. This wisdom will help eliminate the man's depression.

You should link me to these 'studies' so I an get a better understanding of their system.

"And why is practically every claim about an answered prayer something that could happen by chance, or even something that was bound to happen."

I see you said practically. Not all. Is this not evidence of God's influence? Keep in mind that I never claimed that God grants all prayers. Nor does he grants most of them. He may only grant a fraction of a fraction of the prayers he gets. So telling me that "most prayers don't work" means nothing.

"You could get the worlds population to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back and it wouldn't happen."

Again, God fixes problems. This amputee may still be able to have a fulfilling life without that limb. And God could be the entity that shows the amputee his fulfilment.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: But you must find a balance between information and simplicity. Changing the title to: "Demanding prayers makes no sense" would also be misleading, and making it even more accurate than that would make it horribly long. Instead, I chose to leave some information out, and then clarified the rest in my OP. How would "Demanding prayers make no sense" be misleading? Are you not arguing that the idea of prayers with demands are flawed? And please, give me this title which you think would be "horribly long". "Demanding prayers makes no sense" could also suggest that it makes no sense for God to demand prayers from His followers. The longer version would be "Asking God for help makes no sense", which is an excellent title that I just came up with. It probably won't attract as many readers though, so I will be keeping the old one. By saying "Praying makes no sense" people often thinks of phrases such as 'Say your last prayer', which is the most common context of prayers. That justifies my old title IMO (and no mod has been complaining so far...).

I actually think "Asking God for help makes no sense" would get more views, but it's your thread.

Your argument is valid, but at the same time, the Bible answers your argument pretty soundly.

True, Biblical prayer is rarely to demand or question the wisdom of God. Rather, prayer is communication with God to have Him guide and direct you through His wisdom.

Here are a few examples of prayer in the New Testament:

James 4:

² You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. ³ When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

⁴ You adulterous people,^[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. ⁵ Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us^[b]? ⁶ But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

⁷ Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ⁸ Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. ⁹ Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. ¹⁰ Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

.

.

 

¹³ Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” ¹⁴ Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. ¹⁵ Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” ¹⁶ As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. ¹⁷ If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

_________________

The entire context is on how we approach God for what we want. Verses 13-16 wrap it up in regards to a person's desires compared to God's desires for our life.

 

The model prayer of Jesus is another great example of how we're supposed to pray:

Matthew 6:

Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: No, it shows that you are unhappy with your situation and would like a change. But the problem is that you don't know what situation you deserve, yet, a request would suggest that you do so. It's like asking God to send an evil person to Hell, even though only God knows if he/she truly deserves it. We're going cricles now. I'll just leave you with this last post unless you want more: Asking for something through prayer is a direct & personal approach to contact God. Do you agree? If you disagree, let me know and I'll explain why latter. If you agree, then keep reading. God appreciates this effort and this could be the effort that influences what a person deserves. Therefore, a prayer can cause change. But not because you are forcing God to do something. And not because you're informing him of new information. God simply likes act of prayer (for reasons already mentioned). Which is addressed in the OP. If that is true, then praying becomes a tool; the tool to play God. The ability to change other humans destiny through your belief, and not only actions. Your opinion on African poverty does not change their situation. Only God's opinion (and therefore actions) does. God will not give you godlike powers.

Keep in mind that I never mentioned praying for others. I don't think that makes sense either. I'm talking about a person praying for themselves.

You keep getting back to Calvinism, don't you?

Well the biggest reason why someone shouldn't pray to god is because it just makes them look silly talking to themselves -_-

If you believe in all that stuff though, more power to you i guess

richardhutnik said: appolose said: As a Christian who believes the Bible, I've had to try to derive the implications of several of its sayings to make cohesive theologies concerning various topics. With prayer, the Bible does have (of course) several sayings about what one should use it for and what it does. While many users above have pointed out that prayer can help the individual change himself or act as praise and worship, the Bible does seem to imply that requests can be granted, and, furthermore, if they hadn't been asked, they wouldn't have been granted. The Bible also claims an omniscient. omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, which, for me, returns the subject of prayer to the problem posed in the OP: if God knows everything and can do everything, wouldn't He know beforehand about the requests I would make and decide whether or not to do them anyway without my asking? The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time. That was dreadfully ineloquent; ask for clarification if needed. One can look at what the original post involved and then take the inverse in that, if God's will happens anyway, what is the point of doing anything, but just let God do it?  Why bother to try to help the poor, since God will do it?  There are people who have theological and philosophical beliefs that people deserve where they are (Job, in the Bible, is a strong refutation of this), so there is no point in helping the poor.  Life has to work itself out, and you need to have behavior punished so there is less of it.  Thus, you cut welfare and whatnot, so you get less people on welfare.  It all fits into a form of determinism. In regards to prayer, it is entirely possible, theologically, to have it that God wants people to ask first, and knows who will ask, and then when asked for it happens.  The involvement with the person in prayer is part of God doing things.  If one assumes that God wants some interaction with the human race, this is how it would work. What actually is more interesting, and useful, out of this thread, is discussing a main point of the post from an angle of, "Is prayer all that God wants?"  What I believe is seen, and I wrote on prior here, is that there is WAY too much God on the margins in life, that God isn't as real.   The entire "God being real" actually becomes a racket some churches use to get people to attend.  Sunday morning is an entire "God is real" show, that has little to no impact on the rest of the week.  Well, it makes people more evangelically, so they will sign John 3:16 at the end of the work email, but does it make any lasting difference, or can a person say they built a life on what God really wanted?  I believe the discussions of wisdom flow out of this.  Bible says God says to pray for wisdom, so it becomes down to asking God in a time of crisis what to do.  That isn't wisdom, that is a decision.  Wisdom is understanding, and you see in Proverbs where wisdom is not something sought during a crisis, but something sought all the time, because you want understanding.  Of course, this goes over people's heads because they just want a quick fix and get on with their lives.  It all ends up marginal lip service, at best.  Oh yes, there is adoration of Jesus.   I will go with Bill Maher on this and say merely adoring Jesus makes you a fan, not really a disciple of him:

That is not an untrue criticism; most religous adherents (at least here in the US) have a religion of self, treating whatever they believe to be true as a means to benefit themselves.  In various Christian circles, many teachings that sound quite Christian at first, if closely examined, are inherently selfish.  For example, often I hear about how to live so that "God does great things through you," and, more often than not, the focus is not so much that great things are being done but that one can achieve that status or level of success.