The Logical Flaw of Prayers

[appolose]

richardhutnik said:

appolose said:
As a Christian who believes the Bible, I've had to try to derive the implications of several of its sayings to make cohesive theologies concerning various topics. With prayer, the Bible does have (of course) several sayings about what one should use it for and what it does. While many users above have pointed out that prayer can help the individual change himself or act as praise and worship, the Bible does seem to imply that requests can be granted, and, furthermore, if they hadn't been asked, they wouldn't have been granted.

The Bible also claims an omniscient. omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, which, for me, returns the subject of prayer to the problem posed in the OP: if God knows everything and can do everything, wouldn't He know beforehand about the requests I would make and decide whether or not to do them anyway without my asking?

The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time.

That was dreadfully ineloquent; ask for clarification if needed.

One can look at what the original post involved and then take the inverse in that, if God's will happens anyway, what is the point of doing anything, but just let God do it?  Why bother to try to help the poor, since God will do it?  There are people who have theological and philosophical beliefs that people deserve where they are (Job, in the Bible, is a strong refutation of this), so there is no point in helping the poor.  Life has to work itself out, and you need to have behavior punished so there is less of it.  Thus, you cut welfare and whatnot, so you get less people on welfare.  It all fits into a form of determinism.

In regards to prayer, it is entirely possible, theologically, to have it that God wants people to ask first, and knows who will ask, and then when asked for it happens.  The involvement with the person in prayer is part of God doing things.  If one assumes that God wants some interaction with the human race, this is how it would work.

What actually is more interesting, and useful, out of this thread, is discussing a main point of the post from an angle of, "Is prayer all that God wants?"  What I believe is seen, and I wrote on prior here, is that there is WAY too much God on the margins in life, that God isn't as real.   The entire "God being real" actually becomes a racket some churches use to get people to attend.  Sunday morning is an entire "God is real" show, that has little to no impact on the rest of the week.  Well, it makes people more evangelically, so they will sign John 3:16 at the end of the work email, but does it make any lasting difference, or can a person say they built a life on what God really wanted?  I believe the discussions of wisdom flow out of this.  Bible says God says to pray for wisdom, so it becomes down to asking God in a time of crisis what to do.  That isn't wisdom, that is a decision.  Wisdom is understanding, and you see in Proverbs where wisdom is not something sought during a crisis, but something sought all the time, because you want understanding.  Of course, this goes over people's heads because they just want a quick fix and get on with their lives.  It all ends up marginal lip service, at best.  Oh yes, there is adoration of Jesus.  

I will go with Bill Maher on this and say merely adoring Jesus makes you a fan, not really a disciple of him:

That is not an untrue criticism; most religous adherents (at least here in the US) have a religion of self, treating whatever they believe to be true as a means to benefit themselves.  In various Christian circles, many teachings that sound quite Christian at first, if closely examined, are inherently selfish.  For example, often I hear about how to live so that "God does great things through you," and, more often than not, the focus is not so much that great things are being done but that one can achieve that status or level of success.