By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Question about free will.

 

Will you be Joe?

Yes 3 20.00%
 
No 10 66.67%
 
Other? 2 13.33%
 
Total:15
miz1q2w3e on 12 May 2012
Jay520 said:

Your brain and soul stays the same. But you grow up in Joe's body. You see everything Joe saw. You feel what Joe felt. You have the same family as Joe. You grow up in the same house. As a baby, you're raised in the same crib that Joe was in. Your first sight is the same sight as Joe's first sight. Same height, weight, eye color, everything.

I think some people misunderstood the OP. If you switch genetic factors AND environmental factors, what else is there?

Say you were switched with person from another country, you wouldn't even speak the same language, you'd probably be a different religion...etc You'd be who that person was going to be.



Around the Network
Jay520 on 12 May 2012
badgenome said:
Jay520 said:
@ Badgenome

I'm not just saying genetic & environmental factors play a large role in deciding who we are. I'm saying they are the ONLY factors that determine who we are.

As for the last sentence. I'd say a person will only want to do such a thing if his environmen pressures him to do so. If a person does try to overcome some environmental influences, it's only because some other environmental influence encouraged him to do so.

For example, most kids that grow up in the projects won't be very successful at adulthood. Because they've grown believing that being 'cool' is better than being smart in school. And these are genuine deep beliefs. They don't choose to believe these things. Their brains have just determined that way of life to 'best' using the best of its ability. Of course, some kids do graduate college, and be successful. Why? Because of other environmental influences.

Well, I think determinism and free will are both true (compatablism). Environmental and cultural factors have incredibly profound effects on people, no doubt, and it's true that most people won't ultimately deviate much from the norm. But they can, and some do, and the reason they can and do is because of what we call free will.



Thanks, I'll look into that. As for the last sentence, I genuinely believe that anybody that has deviated from the norm did so because they've had abnormal experiences and/or abnormal genetic makeup. Thus, making them do what they 'think' is better. Had they not had those abnormal experiences/genetic makeup, they would have probably been normal. But I'll look it up though.

Jay520 on 12 May 2012
pezus said:
miz1q2w3e said:
Jay520 said:

Your brain and soul stays the same. But you grow up in Joe's body. You see everything Joe saw. You feel what Joe felt. You have the same family as Joe. You grow up in the same house. As a baby, you're raised in the same crib that Joe was in. Your first sight is the same sight as Joe's first sight. Same height, weight, eye color, everything.

I think some people misunderstood the OP. If you switch genetic factors AND environmental factors, what else is there?

Say you were switched with person from another country, you wouldn't even speak the same language, you'd probably be a different religion...etc You'd be who that person was going to be.

Not exactly, since you still have your brain which is genetically different from Joe's. 



Exactly, and any decisions you make that are based on that different brain is out of your control. You didn't make yourself have a different brain. Your different brain is the sole factor that would make you different. How is that free will when the sole trait about yourself that makes you different is birth-given? You didn't decide to have a different brain. Nor do you decide how to use it.

Jay520 on 12 May 2012
pezus said:
Jay520 said:
pezus said:
miz1q2w3e said:
Jay520 said:

Your brain and soul stays the same. But you grow up in Joe's body. You see everything Joe saw. You feel what Joe felt. You have the same family as Joe. You grow up in the same house. As a baby, you're raised in the same crib that Joe was in. Your first sight is the same sight as Joe's first sight. Same height, weight, eye color, everything.

I think some people misunderstood the OP. If you switch genetic factors AND environmental factors, what else is there?

Say you were switched with person from another country, you wouldn't even speak the same language, you'd probably be a different religion...etc You'd be who that person was going to be.

Not exactly, since you still have your brain which is genetically different from Joe's. 


Exactly, and any decisions you make that are based on that different brain is out of your control. You didn't make yourself have a different brain. Your different brain is the sole factor that would make you different.

Well, yes. But, like Badgenome, I don't feel like that's the essence of what having free will means. Free will to me means that you reflect on past experiences to make decisions so whether that is all pre-determined or not is irrelevant to how I look at free will. I've said it before but we are really just debating about semantics here.



Exactly. Your brain uses the data it's given (which you don't control) and your brain processes that data (which you also don't control). You aren't controlling anything about yourself. You're just the focus of your environment.

miz1q2w3e on 12 May 2012
badgenome said:

Well, the animal will keep trying (and if smart enough, will figure out a way past the fence) if there is no other food available and the only other option is starvation. Animals are capable of learning, and some higher animals can learn a great deal, but it's all based on the instinctive imperative to survive. They are not capable of real introspection, though.

As for the theoretical self-programming computer, yes, it would have free will. Didn't you play Mass Effect 3?

That's simply not true, or at the very least you can't be certain they aren't. I've seen and read my share of presentational videos and articles, studies have been done on the subject, look some up if your interested. @learning & instinct: How is that so different from humans? We're basically the same but on a higher/more complex level.

@second sentence: Why the "theoretical"? It isn't that complicated to create a computer program that adjusted itself based on external factors. You say self-programming but I never claimed that. Building one that was able to emulate what the human brain does, although complicated, is certainly NOT impossible.

Either way, what's you point? The examples you mentioned aren't on the same level as humans, but that doesn't have much to do with the hypothetical at hand.



Around the Network
Jay520 on 12 May 2012
pezus said:

Then you have to wonder: what are "you"? We are just parts of the environment so we aren't really persons. No free will, only a product of the environment. Tough luck son!



I am the focus of my environment. Everything I think is right or true is only because my brain has decided on that based on the environment. I'd say we are parts of the environment.

miz1q2w3e on 12 May 2012
pezus said:
miz1q2w3e said:
Jay520 said:

Your brain and soul stays the same. But you grow up in Joe's body. You see everything Joe saw. You feel what Joe felt. You have the same family as Joe. You grow up in the same house. As a baby, you're raised in the same crib that Joe was in. Your first sight is the same sight as Joe's first sight. Same height, weight, eye color, everything.

I think some people misunderstood the OP. If you switch genetic factors AND environmental factors, what else is there?

Say you were switched with person from another country, you wouldn't even speak the same language, you'd probably be a different religion...etc You'd be who that person was going to be.

Not exactly, since you still have your brain which is genetically different from Joe's. 

That was my first question, I mentioned that my case was true if you also had Joe's brain.

If you still kept your own brain, well Jay already answered

Jay520 said:
 Exactly. Your brain uses the data it's given (which you don't control) and your brain processes that data (which you also don't control). You aren't controlling anything about yourself. You're just the focus of your environment.

In neither case do you have "free will". Everything that you do and everything that you are, none of it is in your control and you were never "free" to choose.



Jay520 on 12 May 2012

Our brains work like a function. Give it an input (data via the senses). It'll produce an output (thought, action, belief, etc.). And that's essentially how it works imo. We're not deciding anything. Just experiencing it.



badgenome on 12 May 2012
Jay520 said:

Thanks, I'll look into that. As for the last sentence, I genuinely believe that anybody that has deviated from the norm did so because they've had abnormal experiences and/or abnormal genetic makeup. Thus, making them do what they 'think' is better. Had they not had those abnormal experiences/genetic makeup, they would have probably been normal. But I'll look it up though.

A pure metaphysical libertarian would have completely discount things like heredity and environmental factors in order to pretend that everybody is an entirely self-made man, something that seems so self-evidently false that it's not worth discussing. But a hard determinist either has to live his life hypocritically - pretending he's making choices that he knows he isn't really making because he could never have done anything else - or would else fall into a fatalistic torpor and may as well not be living at all.

Humans are conformist by nature, this much is true. That's precisely why culture is so important, and why a culture of conformity, of failure, of beating down the tallest nail, of "don't ask, don't think, don't try" is a waste of countless potentially brilliant minds, whereas a culture of free inquiry allows everyone to make the most of his mind and his "free will".



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 12 May 2012

It's amazing how much has changed since that happened.

People are finally finding their way out of the maze, it seems