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Forums - Politics - Europeon Debt Crisis: There isn't another option EXCEPT austerity.

Akvod said:

From my professor's lecture slides:

•In a perfect capital market, firms have few reasons to preserve cash since external financing can always be obtained at a fair price

•In the presence of imperfections:
~Firms may maintain excess cash as a precaution against the possibility of future negative shocks or liquidity constraints
~Example: Recent financial crisis
–Commercial paper markets dried up, lenders were worried about counterparties defaulting
–Many firms were not able to access credit markets

•What is a liquidity shock?
•With a large liquidity shock, the borrower may not be able to obtain funds (at least not at reasonable rates)
•What are some benefits and costs of liquidity?

•Benefit: Avoid Issuance Cost
~Don’t have to access external capital markets
~Avoid transaction and asymmetric information costs
–In times of need, asymmetric information problem is probably more severe

•Benefit: Ability to invest even when external markets are too costly
~If earnings are not likely to be enough to fund future positive-NPV investment opportunities, the firm might accumulate a large cash balance
~Allows firms to seize opportunities when their competition is capital constrained

•Benefit: Avoid Financial Distress Costs
~If firm’s operations do not generate sufficient cash flow to service debt, liquidity reduces likelihood of incurring financial distress costs

•Cost: Agency Cost (this should look familiar)
~Free Cash Flow problem
–Executive perks, over-paying for acquisitions, etc.
~Paying out cash and issuing debt can decrease the FCF problem

•Cost: Taxes and Cash Retention
~Corporate taxes make it costly for a firm to retain excess cash
~Cash=Negative Debt (mostly)
–Firms earn interest on cash equivalents
–This is like a negative interest tax shield
~Double taxation on firm’s cash:
–Corporate tax and capital gains tax on interest earned
–Firm pays tax on the interest earned that is added to the value of the firm, which is taxed again when investors receive payouts.


There you go. This isn't a fucking a socialist professor, but a business school professor that fucking uses Atlas Shrugged references in almost every exam/sample problem. If corporations expect taxes to increase, then they will leverage, since it's more costly to hold on to cash (and it's more valuable to hold debt, to take advantage of tax shields).

So, companies are going to invest more, because on increased taxes on investments, and increased taxes on things in no way related to money supply?

 

Pay attention to what taxes are being proposed being raised.  In this case, it's taxes on investments.  That and then increased taxes that have nothing to do with corporate tax rates... but instead rely completely on the size of your workforce.

 

Here's something to keep in mind.

Economics is not a hard science.   It's not physics, or geometry, or biology.

Economics is a social science.

As such, you need to focus on specific choices, and why decisions are made, and the culture of the people making the descisions.  The economy is people, not numbers and silly absolute statements that don't pay attention to situations or the reality of what's going on.



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Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
I agree, austerity measures are needed to bring the country into surplus.

These measures need to include both increases in taxes and spending cuts. I'm really a fan of the 'Buffett' tax, it only seems sensible.


I wouldn't mind seeing tax increases, but the Buffet Rule just seems problematic.  It is afterall essentially a giant tax on new investments.  I don't know if they've properly covered the buffet tax in New Zealand, because few places can actually barely be forced to cover it correctly here but essentially it's an "Alterantive Minium Tax" that taxes investments and only hits people whos main form of income is people who put most of their money in the economy through investments and stocks.

Such a thing would likely case hesistance in areas of high risk. (which is where rich people are valuable) and cause a move more towards "safer" invesments.  Which would make things hard for the average investor. (something like 40-60% of people hold investments in the US.)

Problematic because rich people investing is more or less "Free" stimulus, without the need of the government taking on a huge debt that it may or may not ever decide to pay off.


It's a giant tax on income from investments for people earning above a threshold. It's not right that people earning millions pay far less a percentage of their income in tax than somebody earning a middling wage. I find regressive taxation systems morally wrong.

You do realize you've completely changed your arguement here right?

Your original arguement was the buffet rule needs to exist to bring the country into a surplus.  I've explained how such a rule may actually cause the opposite to be true, after which you've made a moral arguement against it... essentially conceding that such a rule would be harmful to the economy as constructed, but just would like it because it would be more moral in your view.

Do I find it moral that somebody pays less taxes for buying and selling shares in companies then working at the same companies?   No.  Do I think it helps the economy by spurring investments... from pretty much everybody?   Yes.

Do I think said investments in turn end up enhancing everbodys lives including those who pay more taxes on a middling income?   Also yes.

Do I think it's moral to do something to make things more "fair" yet hurt everyones lives?  No, don't really find that moral either.

Kinda seems like a rewrite is needed that would exempt your riskier investments.  By say giving cheaper tax rates or even to IPOs and stocks under 2 years of age when purchased, while loweirng IPO restrictions.


I believe there are moral and economic arguments for the Buffett tax. The fact is that increased taxation on investment has not been shown to significantly decrease investment and the idea that low taxes on investment spurs the economy doesn't have a whole lot of proof behind it. At the same time it's morally repugnant.

Except it has... increased taxation on investment has in general shown a steep decline on investment or investment growth immediatly, that recedes over time.  Just how a cut on taxation on investment in general shows a steep increases that falls back to normalization over time.

In the LONG TERM after a decade or two it doesn't effect anything.   Short term?

Also in general that tends to ignore where the investments are going?  With more less chance for profit, people will invest in things with less risk?  Only makes sense right?

Really it's the big investments that drive the economy, and if they investments miss... it's just some rich guy who loses out, no big deal.



Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

No. Uncertainty of demand, difficulty of obtaining finance, and increased risk of financial distress are the main reasons why they are holding cash.

Even if we were to accept fear of taxes as a reason, they're not as huge as the three reasons I've listed.

 

Enough with the conspiracies.

You seem to be the one with the conspiracies.

Why is it difficult to obtain finance when banks are having huge comebeacks and rapid profits?

Uncertainty of demand... that sounds a lot like uncertaitnty of profit to me?  Which you know, is the focal point against stimulus, government stimulus isn't real demand, so instead it just cloggs up the money into buisnesses that hold on to it for real demand?

Increased risk of financial distress... so... what's the point of the stimulus again... if all this money is just going to end up in buisnesses hands that won't spend it.

1) Because demand is uncertain and the economy is depressed? Demand uncertainity = Cash flow uncertainity.

2) I really don't see your point. We can disagree what the government should do when there's uncertainity of demand, but the point is that people are less willing to spend and now firms have to deleverage because cash flows are uncertain.

3) I mean, you have to take financial theory with a grain of salt, but firms don't just horde cash for the sake of hording cash. If you gave a firm a trillion dollars, hypothetically, they aren't just going to horde it all. They'll probably distribute a lot of it as dividends or repurchase shares. So no, firms aren't going to hold infinite amounts of money. Firms are deleveraging though, because, like I said, there's higher uncertainity in demand, and because getting external financing is more expensive.

 

It might not be as simple and feel good as "it's big bad government's fault", but the reality is simple. Firms are deleveraging because it's more expensive to borrow money and it's more risky to have debt in the current economic environment.

 

1) So, you can't get a loan because of the situations I mentioned, thereofre you can't get a loan, and the problem is you can't get a loan.   Companies would be willing to invest a bit if they had any idea what to expect next year.

Nevermind the Voelkler rule which by law is going to force way more cash reserves.

2)  Well first, your central arguement is that governments need to spend to create growth, yet you are argueing growth isn't occuring because of uncertainty in the face of government spending.  Your arguement here completely defeats your overlying premise above.

3) Economic theories, much like scientific theories eventually have to fall to the wayside when in contradicts the observable facts.  In general there is a HUGE gap between educational economists and practical economists.  Educational economists tend to ask the "wrong" questions.

1) Wha-wha-what? You repeated the same thing three times.

You can get a loan, just not for as much as you want and for low rates, nor quickly.

Companies will be willing to invest if there were investment opportunities. But in order to have such an opportunity you need to have DEMAND. Otherwise, it's a negative NPV investment.

As for cash reserves, I'm not really knowledgeable on the legislation, but isn't it mainly targeted towards banks?

2) Regardless of what we believe the effects of government spending is, my point is that firms are not spending because of the uncertainty behind consumer demand and the global economy (e.g. what if the EU collapses). I have no idea what you think I was saying, but whatever you have in your head is wrong.

3) Okay, so you're essentially taking a nihilist argument then. Nothing's right. Well, except for what you think.

I mean, common fucking sense. Why would you hold money if you're going to get taxed more? So the government can grab more of it?



Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:

From my professor's lecture slides:

•In a perfect capital market, firms have few reasons to preserve cash since external financing can always be obtained at a fair price

•In the presence of imperfections:
~Firms may maintain excess cash as a precaution against the possibility of future negative shocks or liquidity constraints
~Example: Recent financial crisis
–Commercial paper markets dried up, lenders were worried about counterparties defaulting
–Many firms were not able to access credit markets

•What is a liquidity shock?
•With a large liquidity shock, the borrower may not be able to obtain funds (at least not at reasonable rates)
•What are some benefits and costs of liquidity?

•Benefit: Avoid Issuance Cost
~Don’t have to access external capital markets
~Avoid transaction and asymmetric information costs
–In times of need, asymmetric information problem is probably more severe

•Benefit: Ability to invest even when external markets are too costly
~If earnings are not likely to be enough to fund future positive-NPV investment opportunities, the firm might accumulate a large cash balance
~Allows firms to seize opportunities when their competition is capital constrained

•Benefit: Avoid Financial Distress Costs
~If firm’s operations do not generate sufficient cash flow to service debt, liquidity reduces likelihood of incurring financial distress costs

•Cost: Agency Cost (this should look familiar)
~Free Cash Flow problem
–Executive perks, over-paying for acquisitions, etc.
~Paying out cash and issuing debt can decrease the FCF problem

•Cost: Taxes and Cash Retention
~Corporate taxes make it costly for a firm to retain excess cash
~Cash=Negative Debt (mostly)
–Firms earn interest on cash equivalents
–This is like a negative interest tax shield
~Double taxation on firm’s cash:
–Corporate tax and capital gains tax on interest earned
–Firm pays tax on the interest earned that is added to the value of the firm, which is taxed again when investors receive payouts.


There you go. This isn't a fucking a socialist professor, but a business school professor that fucking uses Atlas Shrugged references in almost every exam/sample problem. If corporations expect taxes to increase, then they will leverage, since it's more costly to hold on to cash (and it's more valuable to hold debt, to take advantage of tax shields).

So, companies are going to invest more, because on increased taxes on investments, and increased taxes on things in no way related to money supply?

 

Pay attention to what taxes are being proposed being raised.  In this case, it's taxes on investments.  That and then increased taxes that have nothing to do with corporate tax rates... but instead rely completely on the size of your workforce.

 

Here's something to keep in mind.

Economics is not a hard science.   It's not physics, or geometry, or biology.

Economics is a social science.

As such, you need to focus on specific choices, and why decisions are made, and the culture of the people making the descisions.  The economy is people, not numbers and silly absolute statements that don't pay attention to situations or the reality of what's going on.

You're mixing up deleveraging with investments.

1) Investments happen when there's an opportunity to make money, and you can borrow money or have the money to finance it.

2) Capital Structure/Leverage, is a firm's decision on how much debt to hold, given factors like taxes and financial distress risks.

 

So:

2) Firms are deleveraging because they don't want to go bankrupt.

1) Firms aren't investing, because there are few growth opportuntieis, and because they don't have access to reasonably priced capital. It's expensive and a pain in the ass to borrow now. Also, because of the uncertainity in the economy, that also increases the risk of the investment, and decreases the expected benefit of the investment.



Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

No. Uncertainty of demand, difficulty of obtaining finance, and increased risk of financial distress are the main reasons why they are holding cash.

Even if we were to accept fear of taxes as a reason, they're not as huge as the three reasons I've listed.

 

Enough with the conspiracies.

You seem to be the one with the conspiracies.

Why is it difficult to obtain finance when banks are having huge comebeacks and rapid profits?

Uncertainty of demand... that sounds a lot like uncertaitnty of profit to me?  Which you know, is the focal point against stimulus, government stimulus isn't real demand, so instead it just cloggs up the money into buisnesses that hold on to it for real demand?

Increased risk of financial distress... so... what's the point of the stimulus again... if all this money is just going to end up in buisnesses hands that won't spend it.

1) Because demand is uncertain and the economy is depressed? Demand uncertainity = Cash flow uncertainity.

2) I really don't see your point. We can disagree what the government should do when there's uncertainity of demand, but the point is that people are less willing to spend and now firms have to deleverage because cash flows are uncertain.

3) I mean, you have to take financial theory with a grain of salt, but firms don't just horde cash for the sake of hording cash. If you gave a firm a trillion dollars, hypothetically, they aren't just going to horde it all. They'll probably distribute a lot of it as dividends or repurchase shares. So no, firms aren't going to hold infinite amounts of money. Firms are deleveraging though, because, like I said, there's higher uncertainity in demand, and because getting external financing is more expensive.

 

It might not be as simple and feel good as "it's big bad government's fault", but the reality is simple. Firms are deleveraging because it's more expensive to borrow money and it's more risky to have debt in the current economic environment.

 

1) So, you can't get a loan because of the situations I mentioned, thereofre you can't get a loan, and the problem is you can't get a loan.   Companies would be willing to invest a bit if they had any idea what to expect next year.

Nevermind the Voelkler rule which by law is going to force way more cash reserves.

2)  Well first, your central arguement is that governments need to spend to create growth, yet you are argueing growth isn't occuring because of uncertainty in the face of government spending.  Your arguement here completely defeats your overlying premise above.

3) Economic theories, much like scientific theories eventually have to fall to the wayside when in contradicts the observable facts.  In general there is a HUGE gap between educational economists and practical economists.  Educational economists tend to ask the "wrong" questions.

1) Wha-wha-what? You repeated the same thing three times.

You can get a loan, just not for as much as you want and for low rates, nor quickly.

Companies will be willing to invest if there were investment opportunities. But in order to have such an opportunity you need to have DEMAND. Otherwise, it's a negative NPV investment.

As for cash reserves, I'm not really knowledgeable on the legislation, but isn't it mainly targeted towards banks?

2) Regardless of what we believe the effects of government spending is, my point is that firms are not spending because of the uncertainty behind consumer demand and the global economy (e.g. what if the EU collapses). I have no idea what you think I was saying, but whatever you have in your head is wrong.

3) Okay, so you're essentially taking a nihilist argument then. Nothing's right. Well, except for what you think.

I mean, common fucking sense. Why would you hold money if you're going to get taxed more? So the government can grab more of it?


1) The Voelkler rule is targeted at banks, it is, which is why banks aren't lending out as much as they would be... however in general banks report actually not fufilling as many loans as they'd like.

Keep in mind though... we are mostly talking about companies that don't even really need loans.  They're sitting on cash reservse.

2)  Except the economy has slowly improved despite europe pretty much being hopeless this entire time.  After a while europeon risk is just priced in to operating procedures and people say "It's now or never."  Except they haven't because there is other risk that can't be quantified.

3)  The point was, companies aren't doing anything with their money.  Saying economic theory says they won't doesn't mean a whole lot when they are. 

 

It's like argueing that biological theory says a bear won't eat a person so you should relax, when the guy next to you is having his leg eaten by a bear.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the taxations being proposed are of two kinds....

A) An alternative minium tax targeted at investments.  Make a certain amount of money in investments and now you have to pay the same rate as a middle class family would if they had that cash on hand.  Oh, also there is the whole risk factor of your investments bombing.

B) A tax based on the number of employees you have.  Meaning the tax, will be based on how many employees you have/how much their healthcare will cost (complete unknown after this law healthcare goes into effect.)

Also in general 57% of companies cash are in overseas accounts that are free from US Taxation.   You can hold money there tax free, and just bring it back whenever and pay a one time repatriation fee... guess your professor hasn't gotten to that yet.



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Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

No. Uncertainty of demand, difficulty of obtaining finance, and increased risk of financial distress are the main reasons why they are holding cash.

Even if we were to accept fear of taxes as a reason, they're not as huge as the three reasons I've listed.

 

Enough with the conspiracies.

You seem to be the one with the conspiracies.

Why is it difficult to obtain finance when banks are having huge comebeacks and rapid profits?

Uncertainty of demand... that sounds a lot like uncertaitnty of profit to me?  Which you know, is the focal point against stimulus, government stimulus isn't real demand, so instead it just cloggs up the money into buisnesses that hold on to it for real demand?

Increased risk of financial distress... so... what's the point of the stimulus again... if all this money is just going to end up in buisnesses hands that won't spend it.

1) Because demand is uncertain and the economy is depressed? Demand uncertainity = Cash flow uncertainity.

2) I really don't see your point. We can disagree what the government should do when there's uncertainity of demand, but the point is that people are less willing to spend and now firms have to deleverage because cash flows are uncertain.

3) I mean, you have to take financial theory with a grain of salt, but firms don't just horde cash for the sake of hording cash. If you gave a firm a trillion dollars, hypothetically, they aren't just going to horde it all. They'll probably distribute a lot of it as dividends or repurchase shares. So no, firms aren't going to hold infinite amounts of money. Firms are deleveraging though, because, like I said, there's higher uncertainity in demand, and because getting external financing is more expensive.

 

It might not be as simple and feel good as "it's big bad government's fault", but the reality is simple. Firms are deleveraging because it's more expensive to borrow money and it's more risky to have debt in the current economic environment.

 

1) So, you can't get a loan because of the situations I mentioned, thereofre you can't get a loan, and the problem is you can't get a loan.   Companies would be willing to invest a bit if they had any idea what to expect next year.

Nevermind the Voelkler rule which by law is going to force way more cash reserves.

2)  Well first, your central arguement is that governments need to spend to create growth, yet you are argueing growth isn't occuring because of uncertainty in the face of government spending.  Your arguement here completely defeats your overlying premise above.

3) Economic theories, much like scientific theories eventually have to fall to the wayside when in contradicts the observable facts.  In general there is a HUGE gap between educational economists and practical economists.  Educational economists tend to ask the "wrong" questions.

1) Wha-wha-what? You repeated the same thing three times.

You can get a loan, just not for as much as you want and for low rates, nor quickly.

Companies will be willing to invest if there were investment opportunities. But in order to have such an opportunity you need to have DEMAND. Otherwise, it's a negative NPV investment.

As for cash reserves, I'm not really knowledgeable on the legislation, but isn't it mainly targeted towards banks?

2) Regardless of what we believe the effects of government spending is, my point is that firms are not spending because of the uncertainty behind consumer demand and the global economy (e.g. what if the EU collapses). I have no idea what you think I was saying, but whatever you have in your head is wrong.

3) Okay, so you're essentially taking a nihilist argument then. Nothing's right. Well, except for what you think.

I mean, common fucking sense. Why would you hold money if you're going to get taxed more? So the government can grab more of it?


1) The Voelkler rule is targeted at banks, it is, which is why banks aren't lending out as much as they would be... however in general banks report actually not fufilling as many loans as they'd like.

Keep in mind though... we are mostly talking about companies that don't even really need loans.  They're sitting on cash reservse.

2)  Except the economy has slowly improved despite europe pretty much being hopeless this entire time.  After a while europeon risk is just priced in to operating procedures and people say "It's now or never."  Except they haven't because there is other risk that can't be quantified.

3)  The point was, companies aren't doing anything with their money.  Saying economic theory says they won't doesn't mean a whole lot when they are. 

 

It's like argueing that biological theory says a bear won't eat a person so you should relax, when the guy next to you is having his leg eaten by a bear.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the taxations being proposed are of two kinds....

A) An alternative minium tax targeted at investments.  Make a certain amount of money in investments and now you have to pay the same rate as a middle class family would if they had that cash on hand.  Oh, also there is the whole risk factor of your investments bombing.

B) A tax based on the number of employees you have.  Meaning the tax, will be based on how many employees you have/how much their healthcare will cost (complete unknown after this law healthcare goes into effect.)

Also in general 57% of companies cash are in overseas accounts that are free from US Taxation.   You can hold money there tax free, and just bring it back whenever and pay a one time repatriation fee... guess your professor hasn't gotten to that yet.


1) Companies need the cash, because of the risk of bankruptcy. Banks aren't lending because it's risky.

2) More like flatlining. And what countries ended up doing worse? The countries that enacted austerity measures. Ice Land ought to be doing shitty now, right? Wrong.

3) Companies aren't spending money because there's nothing to spend money on, and because it's hard to get money (even if they have it on hand, it's all in terms of opportunity costs of capital, so it doesn't really matter).

From my perspective, you've been simply saying "it's all government's fault", whereas I'm putting up some pretty common sense answers here.

A) Has to do with personal investors. Not with corporations holding cash.

B) Need to do more research on the legislation myself.

C) Tax rules and laws are really complicated. I don't think you and I should really argue about it since we'll be talking out of our asses. There's a reason tax accountants and specialists are paid a ton of money.



Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

To use a simple example. Say you own a shoe making company, and the government puts in a stimulus for shoes. Are you going to reinvest that money in your buisness, knowing that shoe demand is based soley on goverment spending that can't keep up for every, that soon you'll have to pay an indeterminate amount extra per employee, that your bank may have to keep more money on hand, therefore woudln't even give you a loan right now if you asked?

For the US, there is no real answer but time, for stuff like the Obama healthcare law to either go it's course and it's price be known, or for it to just disappear.

Really, that's the only answer for most financial problems but whatever. (With deficit spending only existing in times of trouble to provide for those in need, not companies that aren't going to reinvest until all the uncertainty is gone anyway.)

That's why the US "recovery" has essentially been a jobless one with little to no help to the average person.

Forcing a higher taxation rate on idle money could kick that around. I would argue for regulations that reward companies for growth and punish companies for providing executives with excessive pay-rises or simply sitting on huge warchests for so long. If the carrot of economic growth through spending because of companies' petty political concerns cannot be used, then the stick must be employed: spend the money well or i'll just take it from you and spend it how i want.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

To use a simple example. Say you own a shoe making company, and the government puts in a stimulus for shoes. Are you going to reinvest that money in your buisness, knowing that shoe demand is based soley on goverment spending that can't keep up for every, that soon you'll have to pay an indeterminate amount extra per employee, that your bank may have to keep more money on hand, therefore woudln't even give you a loan right now if you asked?

For the US, there is no real answer but time, for stuff like the Obama healthcare law to either go it's course and it's price be known, or for it to just disappear.

Really, that's the only answer for most financial problems but whatever. (With deficit spending only existing in times of trouble to provide for those in need, not companies that aren't going to reinvest until all the uncertainty is gone anyway.)

That's why the US "recovery" has essentially been a jobless one with little to no help to the average person.

Forcing a higher taxation rate on idle money could kick that around. I would argue for regulations that reward companies for growth and punish companies for providing executives with excessive pay-rises or simply sitting on huge warchests for so long. If the carrot of economic growth through spending because of companies' petty political concerns cannot be used, then the stick must be employed: spend the money well or i'll just take it from you and spend it how i want.

Yeah, i agree with that.  I mean i keep thinking back to  Howard Hughes.  Just because idle money was more expensive then cash on hand.  Of course it's something you'd want an expiring timer on though.

The big problem though is that 57% of corporate idle funds are in overseas bank accounts immune to current tax laws.  Further tax increases may end up instead just increasing that number.  So instead we probably need to find a way to tax all idle funds regardless of the country they are currently in.

 



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
I mean, actually the biggest problem the US faces right now is that the US companies have made some huge profits but aren't reinvesting that. While it's fun to just blame the big faceless corporations, a better question is... wh

Uncertanity to make a profit/uncertantity about costs of obama's healthcare plan/uncertanity of their tax rates.

Plenty of money is sitting out of the economy because of this.

To use a simple example. Say you own a shoe making company, and the government puts in a stimulus for shoes. Are you going to reinvest that money in your buisness, knowing that shoe demand is based soley on goverment spending that can't keep up for every, that soon you'll have to pay an indeterminate amount extra per employee, that your bank may have to keep more money on hand, therefore woudln't even give you a loan right now if you asked?

For the US, there is no real answer but time, for stuff like the Obama healthcare law to either go it's course and it's price be known, or for it to just disappear.

Really, that's the only answer for most financial problems but whatever. (With deficit spending only existing in times of trouble to provide for those in need, not companies that aren't going to reinvest until all the uncertainty is gone anyway.)

That's why the US "recovery" has essentially been a jobless one with little to no help to the average person.

Forcing a higher taxation rate on idle money could kick that around. I would argue for regulations that reward companies for growth and punish companies for providing executives with excessive pay-rises or simply sitting on huge warchests for so long. If the carrot of economic growth through spending because of companies' petty political concerns cannot be used, then the stick must be employed: spend the money well or i'll just take it from you and spend it how i want.

Yeah, i agree with that.  I mean i keep thinking back to  Howard Hughes.  Just because idle money was more expensive then cash on hand.  Of course it's something you'd want an expiring timer on though.

The big problem though is that 57% of corporate idle funds are in overseas bank accounts immune to current tax laws.  Further tax increases may end up instead just increasing that number.  So instead we probably need to find a way to tax all idle funds regardless of the country they are currently in.

 

Tax it as soon as it re-enters the country, though it would be hard saying what money went where definitively.

Pouring pressure on countries that create tax havens would be a start. Surely we could (through our good ties with Great Britain), help bully the Cayman Islands into taxing wealth at a rate more in line with the USA.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

The days of unlimited student loans for people wasting 3 or 4 years in college to do a useless Arts/Humanities or Liberal Arts diploma are over.
Students should be encouraged to do blue collar and manual labour services. There is no shame in a hard days work and a trade may lead to a rewarding career.
A sustainable economy needs both professional white collar office workers and blue collar manual labourers.
A glut of university/college degrees and a bloated bureaucracy is the pathway to economic collapse.