They live in deserts. Their lives are never going to be as good as those in the west

The key is development. You don't necessarily need to pull religion down off a pedestal, but you do need an electorate that is willing to think and act on its own (e.g. you can be a voting Muslim without being a puppet of the Mullahs, Imams, or Ayatollahs, just like how many Americans and Europeans are voting Catholics without being puppets of the Popes or Bishops).

Early democracies always have a swing to the Right or the Left (usually the former) that sometimes undermine the democracy, as its either run by poor people who only have revenge on the rich on their minds, or run by peasants who will vote for whoever their Lord or their Priest tells them to. France from between the French Revolution and the Third Republic was constantly plagued by these problems

Essentially democratic values of some sort need to be imposed before you allow a democracy to come into being. Late-era Eastern Europe, for instance, had a well-educated electorate that had been detached from the bonds of religion, were poor in terms of consumer goods but were well-off enough to be able to politically participate, and had already been politically organized by the State. Dictatorships often inadvertantly install all the fundamentals for a good democracy by trying to improve the country.

If the dictatorship falls prematurely, however, then you have chaos that will end up in a swing to the Left or the Right. This is what you see in much of the Middle East currently. The main problem being that the better-organized foes of the regime are often radical Muslim groups, rather than citizens' groups that represent the needs of the society broadly.

Unfortunitly, most dicatorships know that now... hence why so few even bother to try.

That's what i find interesting about China though... will they be able to keep their way of government moving foward?

I wouldn't quite say that. What has happened more is that most of the development-minded dictatorships have already fallen to their own devices, like Suharto in Indonesia. Syria was interested in modernization, as was Egypt and so, to a point, is Iran. Vietnam and Cuba are working to improve conditions. North Korea, Myanmar, and Laos are capable only of keeping things in stasis, while the ones in Africa tend to be kleptocracies only interested in their own aggrandizement rather than the good of the people

I've been having a bit of a rethink, recently, about military, and war, in general.

As those of you who read my posts here regularly, you will know that I am opposed to, and distrust, Government in just about every aspect. And yet I, like most people with my political mindset, tend to make an exception for military and foreign policy. I mean, this (somewhat) makes sense, the typical libertarian point of view is that if there is any role for Government, it's defence and foreign affairs. But what's going on in Iran is causing me to, let's just say, pause for thought.

Don't get me wrong. I have not supported the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for a while, now. But, my reasons were different. My main issues with these wars (and others - Pakistan, Yemen, Libya) were cost, and the fact that they were just poor foreign policy, that will probably lead to more attacks on the West in the future.

There have been around 140,000 civilian deaths in Iraq. Nobody knows the real number, because nobody cares enough to find out. That's a big number, 140,000. And yet, how many people reading that felt the least bit upset or disturbed by that figure? Fathers, mothers, grandparents, children... dead. What about the thousands more who have been crippled? Or displaced? The families that have been broken up? What about the civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya?

People just don't care about them. Hundreds of thousands of people have been murdered or crippled, or had their lives destroyed by our forces. And yet, we just don't care. For us, it's just a "fact of war". We have been turned into stone by the establishment who don't want us to feel bad for the killings, because if we feel bad, we might start questioning our establishment overlords.

And it's the establishment that are drawing up the propaganda for the next war. It's almost hysterical how little people have learned: the case for Iran war is even more ludicrous than that for Iraq. In Iraq, at least the intelligence agencies said that there were weapons of mass destruction. For Iran, we're told that they might be working on some, and yet people are falling for it moreso than ever before.

/Sorry if this post seems disjointed, I started talking to a housemate mid-post, and the conversation lasted a couple of hours. I lost my thread/

I didn't say that America killed most of the people, I just say that it's disturbing and upsetting when we celebrate the deaths of some humans (enemy combatants), or are completely callous to the deaths of others (civilian casualties). These people are no different from you or I, they just happened to exist within an arbituary barrier which we "declared war" on, and so their rights didn't matter anymore.

It's not just a problem with Iraq, or Afghanistan, or the US, it's a problem with war.

I do not believe that war is a natural state for man. War is a tool for big Government, and the military industrial complex. Through their friends in the media, and the body politik, they manipulate us into supporting these wars, by dehumanising us, by making us blood-thirsty. The media treats war coverage like some kind of action movie, or videogame. It's disturbing.

When you think about what happened in Iraq over the past two decades, the amount of suffering that people have gone through, because we decided that we didn't want Sadam in power, anymore. Yes, he was a bad guy. But does that justify dropping chemical agents on his retreating armies in the first Gulf war? Does that justify bombing water treatment plants, and power stations? The sanctions after the first Gulf war included restrictions on the imports of materials required to rebuild water treatment facilities. The result of this policy was over 500,000 deaths from cholera, and other water borne diseases. These people meant us no harm, and yet we murdered half a million of them to get at one man... and he was still in power! It didn't even work! But, hey, that's policy. That's war.

I do not blame the American people, either. Something like 70% of the American people want out of Afghanistan. Does it happen? No. These elected men, who are meant to represent the people who vote for them, completely deny their wishes. In doing so, they risk the lives of good Americans, and they steal the money from all other Americans to pay for it all. I entirely blame the people in Washington  (and those in Hollywood and New York who do everything they can to brainwash the people into supporting this stuff).

Samuel the majority over whelming majority of civilian deaths are caused by the locals in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan.

You mention the 140,000 Iraqis but neglect how many hundreds of thousands were killed under Saddam. You mention Afghanistan but fail to mention that the death rates in Afghanistan are supposedly down considerably since the Taliban were removed. You forget Afghanistan had fought over twenty years of civil war and the Taliban killed 10-20x as many people during those years then we have.

Also unlike the Iraqi, Afghani and pretty much every force we currently fight civilian deaths are accidental and our forces go to great lengths to prevent them. Where as the Taliban will line up unarmed men women and children infringement of a firing squad. Stone rape victims before dragging their bodies behind trucks through the streets and hanging their torn up bloody corpse for all the citizens to see you don't mess with the Taliban.

War is a terrible thing I agree. But our allied forces are not in the wrong in any way.

I am pretty pissed at our Governments here in the west not because we are in Afghanistan or intervening in Libya. Rather because we have left the people to die at the hands of vicious tyrants.

The millions killed in Vietnam since America's cowardly retreat are dead only because America abandoned them. The whole Afghan civil war was America's fault for not sending in advisors and troops to help the Afghan Government form itself after the Soviets were kicked out. Somalia was also let down as have dozens of other countries including most recently Iraq.

Samuel also just a week before America announced the begin of withdrawals was being moved up to 2013. Their was a UN poll which found 65% of Afghans wanted NATO forces to stay, other recent polls had shown that NATO had overwhelming support in Kabul and growing support in Kandahar. Until the US fucked up with the burning of the Koran and that American soldiers mental breakdown killing innocent women and children.

My hair salon was run by an Iraqi family. One that was extremely happy the Americans were present. But when America began to wind down and Shari'a was being imposed. They freaked their family back in Iraq was Christian and they had friends who were Sunni. Last I heard from them death threats were being sent to them a church had been attacked and their family was desperately trying to get out. They said the Iraq Government was no help that their Sunni friends had fled their neighbourhood fearing death. The Iraqi family told me they were desperately trying to get their family out they were extremely angry with the Americans for leaving the Christians and Sunnies to the mercy of Shiite extremists supported by a Shiite Government.

I also know a pastor from Vietnam. One who served in the Vietnam war alongside America. He loved the Americans and his people did too. He saw his friends blown away fighting for democracy alongside the Americans. They fought hard but America abandoned them. He said his home town was destroyed after America left. Southern Government officials massacred. He spent 15 years in jail for having served in the army. He then spent another ten in jail for being a pastor. He said the South Vietnamese don't forget how America came in promised them peace democracy and freedom and then left them to be slaughtered and persecuted because it was inconvenient.

I have friends in the Canadian Forces , South Korean forces, US Forces and Japanese self defence forces. I have a friend who came back fucked up with PTSD from Iraq, another from Afghanistan. These men fought hard they saw their friends die in front of them they had to see children blown to pieces by IEDs they were shot at sometimes blown up in a Buffalo. These men put their lives on the line day in and day out to help the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now we are leaving and letting the Taliban walk right back into power, letting the Shiite Government in Iraq start abusing its own people.

My friends friends my countries soldiers should not have died just to see our Governments let the Taliban come back. Our soldiers deserve to have died for a purpose they deserve not to have died in vein. Every man and women in our Armed forces should no NATO doesn't chicken out that we stand and fight.

Samuel it is very easy for you to spout this peace crap. You haven't seen what is going on in the ME. You can sit in your comfortable house drinking tea and watching movies and playing video games. You don't have to worry about being slaughtered for your faith having your daughter raped then brutally murdered by stoning for being a whore. You don't have to worry about your son never coming home. Where your next meal will come from if your house will get blown up by some Islamic group because your interpretation of the Quran is different.

You have no right to criticize what our soldiers and our Governments are doing. At least they are trying to help these people. You mentioned Libya, Qaddafi had ordered his men to go door to door in Benghazi and shoot anyone who supported the protests. Every protestors killed like dogs was his wording I believe. If such an act was carried out we would be talking millions of people. But you don't seem to think about how many hundreds of thousands of Libyans Qaddafi could have killed rather the few casualties caused by our air strikes.

Look at Somalia how many millions could have been saved if the international community had maintained a large force in the country? If the UN had supported Brigadier General Romeo De'lair would the Rwandan genocide have killed that many people?

Its not as simple as most make it seem.

As for American citizens wanting out, screw American citizens. Americans are among the most selfish and spoiled people in the world. Even more so then my fellow Canadians they have no back bone for the most part they don't care about their fellow human beings at least not the majority of them. The crap I hear about what entitled rich spoiled Americans think should happen to the lower class sickens me.

Then you see Middle Class Americans with 10x my income more money then I could think of how to spend. Standing outside at Occupy protests winning about how bad they have it.

Sorry but if the American people decided entirely when to go to war and who to go to war with. Canada would be a state, Mexico would have been at war for decades. Heck America would have been bombed to kingdom come.

I recently watched a Vietnam documentary that made me sick. If I could I would have gone to America and slapped the shit out of every one of those smug self righteous jerks.

A man joined the US forces to fight in Vietnam. He served his tour which got extended to 16-months because of lack of volunteers and conscripts. Every one of his friends were killed but he said in an interview that he saved hundreds of lives. One town was being attacked and the Americans were called and he talked about his friend bravely dying protecting the town. He was proud of his service he was so moved by the South Vietnamese and he couldn't wait to get back home.

But when his plane landed and this man who just served 16jmonths saving innocent lives, serving his country and seeing his friends die sometimes in his arms. He stepped off the plane to a couple hundred angry self righteous scum bag protestors who actually through produce at him calling him a murderer. Police had to escort him to the back where they drove him out of the air port. His families house was vandalized by these scum bags and he couldn't find a job because everyone called him a murderer. Eventually he had to move to a different town and hide his army service.

That is what the American people did to a true hero! He wasn't alone I have heard dozens of similar stories. In fact just recently watched a YouTube video uploaded to Facebook from a Christian pacifist group which picketed an American unit returning from Iraq. The video was proud of the shit those scum bags were saying to the brave men and women who served over seas.

So honestly if the people of Afghanistan want us their, if the people of Libya or Iraq. If the military is protecting thousands to millions of lives. Then screw the American people. The politicians should not sell their souls for a vote. Yes leaving millions for dead will win you another term, but how do you live with yourself? Doing the right thing should always trump the public's opinions. If politicians always followed the public's opinions Gays would be being strung up, blacks would still be slaves, abortions would never have been legalized (not necessarily a bad thing) we'd still be stringing up witches. Almost every major human rights achievement made in the last fifty years was done without the majority supporting it. I see no reason why we should do the wrong thing just because a slight majority don't want too!

Oh Joecool7 your so naive. If it wasn't for the British, Canada would probably have been part of America (American had eyes on it but the British Empire kept them in check). If it wasn't for America, Alaska would probably be part of Canada (the British Empire had eyes on Alaska, Russia was in no mood for a fight so sold it to the US, Britain was in no mood to fight the US again).

Point I'm trying to make is you need to get the whole human rights and right to protect out of your way of thinking about wars. And you need to get off your non existent high horse. The vast majority of time wars are fought is precisely because of geo-strategic reasons. Human rights concerns are very much down the bottom of the list. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, support of murderous dictators in Indonesia, South America and the Middle East. It's in order to further American strategic objectives and roll back others. Nothing more.

Just look at one glaring example today. Bahrain is hosting the next F1 Grand Prix. The same Bahrain who's absolute monarch ruling elite is violently suppressing a peaceful democratic uprising. So how come they are getting away with this? Easy explanation. Bahrain is a key US ally in the region. It's hosts the US Fifth Fleet. It's a member of the Saudi dominated pro US GCC. Hence we are barely batting an eye lid. If it's was allied to Iran or Syria or Russia or China, you wouldn't hear the end of it in the press and there's no way F1 would be hosting anything there.

Odd. Given your strong beliefs in natural law and human nature, i thought you would have assumed war was inevitable.

My view on it is that war is primarily an aberration, existing either as a miscalculation or as an act of desperation (like terrorism). Countries that feel they've been completely backed into a corner resort to war, countries that start wars that they then lose misjudged their ability to win, while countries that don't surrender immediately and later lose misjudged their ability to survive (although if you feel that your enemy is going to utterly destroy you either way, then you fight out of desperation, the irrational belief that the more damage you do to your enemy will make your own death more meaningful).

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