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Forums - General - Occupy Wall Street Protests not working? What do you think?

 

How much of an impact is OWS having?

Can't hear them over the sound of my Ferrari 60 24.10%
 
Just a news story, no visible results 82 32.93%
 
Helping change minds, it's a start 68 27.31%
 
Change is on the horizon, just you wait 27 10.84%
 
I feel the impact already 6 2.41%
 
Can't hear them over the... 6 2.41%
 
Total:249
bannedagain said:

Kasz216 said:

Ok.... I can tell you haven't really paid much attention to this stuff until very recently.

First off, a corporation's first job is to not wipe itself out... profits are second... and they achive profits by acting how their consumers want.  If people wanted more starbucks and Ben and Jerry's.... we'd have more Stabucks and Ben and Jerrys.

Secondly reganomics and capital gains has shit all to do with the gini coefficent going up.

New Zealand has a more regressive tax code then we do and has ZERO capital gains taxes, yet their gini coeeficent remains stable.  Hell, just about every single country in the world has a lower capital gains tax, and a HIGHER income tax rate then us... AND much larger regressive sales taxes.  Yet they all have lower gini coefficents.  Why do you think that is so?

What causes the difference between the rich and the poor in the us is transformative assets.

Well... that the fact that medium skilled labor is eaisly automated while service sector and "high level" sector economics are hard to automate.  Whole accouning departments can be replaced by one guy with MS Excel or Turbo Tax.

Well those and illegal immigration.   Illegal immigrants are counted in terms of the census.

There are 48 Million people in this country living under the poverty line... and 12 million Illegal aliens... almost all of which by default live under the poverty line because they can't get a job legitamitly.   Throw in 4 million children of illegal immigration, and you've literally got a huge underclass of 16 million people who can't move up by default.  Essentially a hidden underclass that greatly throws a monkey wrench into our numbers.

Some studies put it as high as 17% of the country having one illegal immigrant parent.  Which puts HUGE penalties on those who do as far as getting wealth because of a complete lack of transformative assets.

Considering 50% of people in the bottom quartile move up.  That means about 8 million people in poverty today will likely still be in poverty 10 years from now as far as people with the chance to move up.  Which isn't bad at all.

The gini coefficent is growing but at the same time, upword and downward mobility is the same as it's always been.

 

Also... no putting money in the stock market does not hurt the economy.  I can't even begin to understand why you would thin that.  EVERYONE wants capital gains taxes lower, including democrats because it HELPS the economy... that and unlike say, working an hourly wage, investment has actual risk which could involve losing instead of gaining money.


In short.  If you actually care about income equality.  It would be worth studying income inequality, rather then try and blindly throw scapegoats at a wall without even considering the positions of those who are poor and what keeps a person poor vs what moves a person up in society.



http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=thom+hartmann&view=detail&mid=9CCCFDF8E5CDCAC27E6C9CCCFDF8E5CDCAC27E6C&first=0&FORM=LKVR27


Again.  Explain why basically every other western country in the world has HIGHER "sweat of your brow" tax rates, and LOWER capital gains tax rates.  Yet doesn't have these problems.

I'm giving you actual facts, figures and reasearch... and your response is a radio hosts talking points. 



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Kasz216 said:
bannedagain said:

Kasz216 said:

Ok.... I can tell you haven't really paid much attention to this stuff until very recently.

First off, a corporation's first job is to not wipe itself out... profits are second... and they achive profits by acting how their consumers want.  If people wanted more starbucks and Ben and Jerry's.... we'd have more Stabucks and Ben and Jerrys.

Secondly reganomics and capital gains has shit all to do with the gini coefficent going up.

New Zealand has a more regressive tax code then we do and has ZERO capital gains taxes, yet their gini coeeficent remains stable.  Hell, just about every single country in the world has a lower capital gains tax, and a HIGHER income tax rate then us... AND much larger regressive sales taxes.  Yet they all have lower gini coefficents.  Why do you think that is so?

What causes the difference between the rich and the poor in the us is transformative assets.

Well... that the fact that medium skilled labor is eaisly automated while service sector and "high level" sector economics are hard to automate.  Whole accouning departments can be replaced by one guy with MS Excel or Turbo Tax.

Well those and illegal immigration.   Illegal immigrants are counted in terms of the census.

There are 48 Million people in this country living under the poverty line... and 12 million Illegal aliens... almost all of which by default live under the poverty line because they can't get a job legitamitly.   Throw in 4 million children of illegal immigration, and you've literally got a huge underclass of 16 million people who can't move up by default.  Essentially a hidden underclass that greatly throws a monkey wrench into our numbers.

Some studies put it as high as 17% of the country having one illegal immigrant parent.  Which puts HUGE penalties on those who do as far as getting wealth because of a complete lack of transformative assets.

Considering 50% of people in the bottom quartile move up.  That means about 8 million people in poverty today will likely still be in poverty 10 years from now as far as people with the chance to move up.  Which isn't bad at all.

The gini coefficent is growing but at the same time, upword and downward mobility is the same as it's always been.

 

Also... no putting money in the stock market does not hurt the economy.  I can't even begin to understand why you would thin that.  EVERYONE wants capital gains taxes lower, including democrats because it HELPS the economy... that and unlike say, working an hourly wage, investment has actual risk which could involve losing instead of gaining money.


In short.  If you actually care about income equality.  It would be worth studying income inequality, rather then try and blindly throw scapegoats at a wall without even considering the positions of those who are poor and what keeps a person poor vs what moves a person up in society.



http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=thom+hartmann&view=detail&mid=9CCCFDF8E5CDCAC27E6C9CCCFDF8E5CDCAC27E6C&first=0&FORM=LKVR27


Again.  Explain why basically every other western country in the world has HIGHER "sweat of your brow" tax rates, and LOWER capital gains tax rates.  Yet doesn't have these problems.

I'm giving you actual facts, figures and reasearch... and your response is a radio hosts talking points. 





Yep, Just as your fox news talking points. Lets just agree to disagree. Personally I think need to study some sociology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology



bannedagain said:
Yep, Just as your fox news talking points. Lets just agree to disagree. Personally I think need to study some sociology

They aren't talking points.  They are actual factual numbers that you can look at and weigh for yourself.

Furthermore, what exactly is "Fox News" about the gini coefficent being higher because illegal immigrants are inherently disadvantaged in our society and essentially work as an underclass to fuel economic growth.  I don't watch Fox news but I was always under the impression they liked to paint Illegal immigrants as people who lived high off the hog stealing government benefits and american jobs.   Painting them as a crushed lower class with no chance for advancement that is one of the largest causes of income inequality sounds more like it would be the talking point of an "Amnesty for Illegal aliens" group.

Since essentially that would mean giving illegal aliens amnesty/have open immigration and suddenly the gini coeffcient should drop a lot and economic mobility should increase.

Hell it's one of the things used to try and get the California Dream act passed. 

Aside from which... what about what I said is in anyway a talking point or incorrect?

The whole point of a debate is trying to disprove someone, not the blind restating of your opinion over and over again.  You stated an opinon, which I countered through a number of facts and figures.

The next step would be to argue why those facts and figures are incorrect, or at the very least admit ignroance on the matter.

Though yeah... i'd suggest studying sociology.  You'd have a much different idea about why income dispairty exists and what could actually be done to change it.

You'd actually learn a lot of interesting information.

For example.  The Gini Coefficent for individuals is almost completely unchanged from 1994.

It's gone UP for households and families.  (IE peoples living together).

However the amount of money people make vs each other is relativly unchanged.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y25WlUbsXM/TqdJJKE5YHI/AAAAAAAAEgc/mEfoQs_f7xs/s1600/US-Gini-Coefficient-for-Individuals-Families-Households-1994-2010.png

Part of this is due to the sociological trend that people marrying outside of their income bracket is MUCH less likely then it used to be.

Which is actually why we have staganancy in economic mobility.  It's increasing in oppurtinity through work, but decreasing through oppurtunity by mating.

One can guess that with women earning more and more money, people more want to marry someone "on their level" rather then one of them having to deal with the ego blow of the other person being the "breadwinner".

Two income houses on the rise also raises the gini coefficent because they essentially have double the money single income households due.

A lot of the gini coefficent rise is suprirsingly less related to people gaining more money, and more related to changes in society.



I will also add that complaint with a problem without proper research is actually something very damaging... as it often leads to false causes as narrative and over time such narrative becomes regular and the focus while true reasons for said issues are left wholly in the dark.

For example, the debate over affirmative action which completely ignores the transformative asset gap.

You can do all the affirmitive action you want, without transformative assets it will amount to nothing as it becomes far to easy for the newly promoted "black middle class" to slide backwords, as a larger percentage of white poor come out of poverty is higher on percentage.



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Since we're on the topic of the Gini coefficient the question that must be asked is "Is there anything inherently wrong with living in a society with unequal incomes?"

Is there something wrong with an individual earning more income in the prime of their career than someone who is just starting out? Is there a problem with someone who is in a more senior position and has substantially more responsibility earning a better income? Is it unfair for someone who made the sacrifice and put in the effort to develop more in demand skills be rewarded for their efforts?

Obviously, the answer is no ...

Where inequality becomes a problem is when it comes as the result of a corrupt and unfair system, but then what needs to be battled is the corruption not the inequality.



HappySqurriel said:

Since we're on the topic of the Gini coefficient the question that must be asked is "Is there anything inherently wrong with living in a society with unequal incomes?"

Is there something wrong with an individual earning more income in the prime of their career than someone who is just starting out? Is there a problem with someone who is in a more senior position and has substantially more responsibility earning a better income? Is it unfair for someone who made the sacrifice and put in the effort to develop more in demand skills be rewarded for their efforts?

Obviously, the answer is no ...

Where inequality becomes a problem is when it comes as the result of a corrupt and unfair system, but then what needs to be battled is the corruption not the inequality.

Thom Hartmann had a great segment on that a while back. Here it is. I think you would find it interesting.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=thom+hartmann+social+inequality&view=detail&mid=2D9527356151AD4598DE2D9527356151AD4598DE&first=0&FORM=LKVR11



bannedagain said:
HappySqurriel said:

Since we're on the topic of the Gini coefficient the question that must be asked is "Is there anything inherently wrong with living in a society with unequal incomes?"

Is there something wrong with an individual earning more income in the prime of their career than someone who is just starting out? Is there a problem with someone who is in a more senior position and has substantially more responsibility earning a better income? Is it unfair for someone who made the sacrifice and put in the effort to develop more in demand skills be rewarded for their efforts?

Obviously, the answer is no ...

Where inequality becomes a problem is when it comes as the result of a corrupt and unfair system, but then what needs to be battled is the corruption not the inequality.

Thom Hartmann had a great segment on that a while back. Here it is. I think you would find it interesting.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=thom+hartmann+social+inequality&view=detail&mid=2D9527356151AD4598DE2D9527356151AD4598DE&first=0&FORM=LKVR11


Wow, who could have a problem with poorly reasoned propaganda that doesn't understand the difference between correlation and causation?



As I have said perhaps the 4th or 5th time on this topic, tax rate is not the issue in America.

It is the loopholes.



SamuelRSmith said:
richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
You know, much of the problems with the world aren't because of Corporate Personhood, they're because of corrupt Governments.

One can argue that with corruption, it takes two to tango. One to bribe, and one to be bribed. However, if the Governments were limited on what they can be bribed about, then there would be no need to bribe.

In Citizens United, it was determined that money is free speech and that corporate entities couldn't be restricted on what they spend to impact a political campaign.  That is what the main issue was about.  Today any form of bribery now takes place in the form of campaign contributions.


Yes, but if the Congress and the President stuck to the constitution, what would there be to bribe them about, this is the point I was trying to make.

The elastic clause can get bent WAY out of shape.  To say, "if only X stuck to the constitution" is like saying nothing would be a problem if people just were ethical.  Thing is that when they are not, then there is problems.  While it is critical to be in line with the Constitution, to keep saying "follow the Constituiton" is THE answer is to ignore a number of other very serious problems that need to get addressed.