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Forums - General Discussion - Muslim Woman Strangles and Stabbs Daughter 40 Times to Exorcise Her

This sad case clearly proves that the barbaric ritual of Exorcism is still being practised by religious extremists through out the world.
Catholic Church has exorcised people riddled with demon's in the past and possibly continues to exorcise people riddled with demon's.
A person riddled with demons usually has a mental illness and he/she needs psychiatric assistance and medical treatment.



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Play4Fun said:
Why not ' Woman strangles and stabs daughter 40 times to exorcise her'?

Because exorcism is a religious ritual.



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:
This sad case clearly proves that the barbaric ritual of Exorcism is still being practised by religious extremists through out the world.
Catholic Church has exorcised people riddled with demon's in the past and possibly continues to exorcise people riddled with demon's.
A person riddled with demons usually has a mental illness and he/she needs psychiatric assistance and medical treatment.

This!



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

padib said:
sapphi_snake said:

Wait, so tying someone against their will and torturing them isn't something that will get you jailed? I did not know that.

@bold: Cops do it all the time, it's not a problem. Should they go to jail for it?

As for torturing, what in Haxiong's story made you think they tortured his aunt??

WOW, your comparisons are truely pathetic.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

padib said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:

You're confusing psychosis with religious fanaticism. They play on each other, but the problem this lady had was psychosis that led her to murder her daughter. What those people you know personally suffer from is religious fanaticism, it can be good (enlightened) or it can be bad (ignorant). Fanaticism in and of itself, imho, is not a bad thing.

No, religious fanaticism is inherently bad, and causes nothing but evil.

Nope. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a religious fanatic, he did a great deal of good (understatement). Martin Luther King was a religious fanatic, and so was mother Teresa. Jesus was a religious fanatic and we know what he did (if the gospels are true, which is a likely possibility unless you just want to doubt for the sake of doubting).

As I said, religious fanaticism is only bad when it is paired with ignorance. Irreligious fanaticism follows the same rule.

I don't think you know what religious fanaticism means. None of the people you mentioned there were religious fanatics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism#Popular_Examples_of_Religious_Fanaticism

Religious fanaticism is the result of ignorance.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:

Wait, so tying someone against their will and torturing them isn't something that will get you jailed? I did not know that.

I really am not sure if you're honestly debating this or not, but I'll assume you're serious, so:

1. There is simply no way she could've been killed. Not to mention, there is no way we could possibly allow such harm to happen. We value human life more than you can imagine...especially that of a family member.

2. We never even laid a hand on her...however, she reacted in a most unusual manner after hearing certain verses, and she turned violent at one point. Just simply keep her pinned until she calms down. She even said her violent reactions were completely against her will (and even said she's aware to what's going on even during this state of 'posession'). From my understanding, people who are diagnosed with illnesses like schizophrenia are not aware to all of their actions.

3. She went for medical and psychiatric help, just fyi, to see if there could be another explanation for this...and it came up with no results. Biggest waste of time ever.

4. If all that isn't enough, and you still want to assume we just wanted to force the religion on her...she wasn't even the initial focus of the exorcism. It was me, my brother, and my mother who were the ones meant to be checked for spirits. Especially my brother. He was the main focus of the sheikh until my aunt just suddenly started having some most unusual spasms after water (it was just sink water taken from the house) was sprinkled at everyone.



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sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
huaxiong90 said:

Tbh, I have yet to find anything that accurately describes what I saw, and what can be used as a means of understanding exorcisms.

My relative who was exorcised was not experiencing any health issues, and she was a devout Muslim until just the two weeks before the exorcism, after a meeting with some (eccentric) people. She wasn't acting weird or showing signs of illness, she just halted her religious activities altogether. There's too much that happened during the exorcism, but the weirdest part was this:

She apparently came to her senses and got a grip after a while of struggling so as not to hear the quranic verses (no pats were used yet, and during this time she even threw punches until her arms were firmly pinned by her husband). Anyways, she was describing what she felt throughout the whole ordeal (she was unable to speak, and felt as if someone had her throat clenched, amongst many other disturbing things). So the sheikh then gives her the Quran and asks her to recite the verse she spoke of while being exorcised. Then, just like that, her facial expression changes into something I have never seen before, and she refuses to even touch the Koran. And the exorcism went on.

I have seen silly stuff on TV and the sort, but never...and I mean NEVER...have I witnessed something so mind boggling in my whole life. And when it all ended, the next day she was back into her religious duties, and eventually made a full recovery to devoutness.

I don't understand what exactly made you people think she was 'possesed'. Halting religious activities? Just seems like you guys were trying to force your religion on her. In Europe you'd be jailed for that 'exorcism'.

No you wouldn't.

Literally you wouldn't.

Holding the person down actually makes sense by the way, because for unkown reasons, people who go through exorcisims tend to spasm like crazy.  It's literally exactly what they would do to you in the hospital if they expected you might go through violent spams.

Due to that, the only thing you could get in trouble for, would be ruled a needed safeguard in a form of homeopathic medicine.

As for why people go through violent spasms when exoricised... there is honestly no actual decent medical explination for it.  You can come up with a hodgepodge of different reasons why it might happen in diffrent exorcisms but there isn't really a good unifying theory.

Wait, so tying someone against their will and torturing them isn't something that will get you jailed? I did not know that.


Well

A) Nothing described there qualifies as torture.

B) The vast majority of exorcisms happen at a persons request.

C) Exoricims happen a lot more in europe then you'd think... including western europe.  The only times they ever get coverage is when someone dies.  Just like basically every homeopathic or medical procedure for that matter.



sapphi_snake said:
Play4Fun said:
Why not ' Woman strangles and stabs daughter 40 times to exorcise her'?

Because exorcism is a religious ritual.

Show where stabbing and strangling is shown to be part of said religious ritual.

I mean, otherwise, if someone shoots someone in the face to preform "heart surgery" by your logic it'd be a death caused by modern medicine.



sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
huaxiong90 said:

Is this really her idea of an exorcism?

Man, that's just fucking disgusting...the exorcism I actually witnessed does not even relate to what I'm reading here.

How was the 'legit' exorcism you were part of like?

There was an 'exorcism' over here in Romania a couple of years ago, conducted by a monk and 2 nuns on another nun (which wasn't possesed by the devil, as there is no such thing, but simply schitzophrenic), and it involved torture and starvation, the 'possesed' nun eventually dying.


A traditional execution simply involves tieing someone down so they don't hurt themselves(People being exorcised for some unkown reason tend to go into violent spasms.) and praying over them while sprinkling them with holy water until they appear calm.

 

Could it be maybe the same reaction any person would have when questionalbe individuals tie them down? And what if the possesed person is insane? No ammount (like the nun from my story). Keeping them tied down and starving them to death is the way to go, no?

No.

Like I said, isn't really medically explained.

The majority of exorcisms are done at the persons behest by people who were close to them their entire lives.  There really aren't many, if any cases of exorcisms caused against peoples will.

In general, the scientific opinion is that it's one of three things.

1)  I actually forget the scientific name is for it.  Though in general it's described as "Believers effect".  Like how most evangelists spasm when a preist channels into them the word of the lord or whatever they're doing.

It's thought the "Demon possession" might have been born out of this.  IE they made some mistakes that go against what they believe, and rationalized it as being "out of their control" and a demon made them do it.... much how some people rationalize their inability to give up addictions or other bad habits they have.  Demon essentially replaced addiction.  These people are represented by those that have exorcisms, then grow up normal people  of that faith.  (Of which, there actually are quite a bit.)

This might actually be a reason why there are a number of successful exorcisms.   The person suddenly feels "freed" of the demon, tricking them into giving up the negative things they were doing because they suddenly feel like they have way more power and self control. 

That and other "Placebo" like effects anyway, since exorcisms actually are known to stop pain and the like too for some people.

 

2) People trying to get out of trouble.  Like the above, but exorcism is seen as a way to get out of disapointment from others/punishment/hard feelings.  Considering the  great lengths you go through, this is likely expected to be the smallest group.  In general these guys are usually people who are represented by children, who grow up and move away, people who get "possessed"  twice and refuse exoricsm the second time, or just are often "Possessed".Sometimes they can transition into group 1.

3) Remanifestation of the disorder coincidentally during exorcism.  The likelyness of this really depends on the disorder.  The group of people effected like this are probably between groups 1 & 3 and likely are the "failed" cases of exoricisms.

People generally like to blame Dissociative Identity Disorger for the majority of exorcisms... but ironically if you ask most psychologists they would say Dissociative Identity Disoder doesn't really exist or if it does... is extremely rare as there seems to be totally regional.  (IE Split personality disorder/ what most people incorrectly define as schitzophrenia.)  Amusingly DID is kinda like Psychologys version of Demonic possession. 

In 1944, there were 76 cases of DID ever... vs like... I don't even know the number now, but lets just say it's increased by over 100,000% in occurence.  Well, only in the countries that believe in DID.  Just how demon possession generally only happens in countries that believe in it.  Though at least exorcist believers have an excuse for it.  (IE: Targeting the faithful.) 

It's actually considered to not be that high because Exorcism success rates are actually usually pretty high... espiecally in the Catholic Church which mandates that psychiatric evaluations must happen before any exorcism so as to avoid the mentally ill being exorcised.

 

None of those really explains Huaxiong's case.  Most likely people would see it as a case 1 and that the decline in "spirtuality" was mostly internalized and slow leading to an eventually loss in belief which was then put on a demon.



hatmoza said:
sad.man.loves.vgc said:
huaxiong90 said:
sapphi_snake said:

I don't understand what exactly made you people think she was 'possesed'. Halting religious activities? Just seems like you guys were trying to force your religion on her. In Europe you'd be jailed for that 'exorcism'.

Do you really think I'd do that to my aunt? Come on, now. It was with her consent that the exorcism was done.

She was always a religious person until that one day. And there was no talk of religion that day either. And she slowly but surely returned to her religious activities after the day of the exorcism.

There is just simply no logical or scientific explanation for that day...and I tried my hardest to find it.


First of all, I am sorry for your relative and I hope she is better now. Salamt. Second of all, I haven't read enough about her story and even then, I am no psychiatrist to judge. However, there ARE scientific explanations for her case. Unusual thoughts, disturbed behaviors, disorganized speech, paranoia,verbal aggression, hearing voices etc are all symptoms of brief psychotic disorder (which is basically schizophrenia that lasts only for one month or less and disappears completely eventually and the person goes on living normally for the rest of their lives).

Third of all, I question.. where Muslims get these fixed beliefs about possessions when there is nothing From Quran or Muhammed himself about Exorcism. Are there stories from the Khulafa Al rashdeen history in which they exorcise people? demons that take over humans and control them? I haven't read any! We have lots of 1400 years old stories about several minor issues and all sorts of Hadeeth but NON that disccussed demons taking control of bodies? how come?

Edit: I know I am not exactly the believer and I forgot everything the Quran said about the Jin honestly but I'll keep it in mind next time I re-explore religions.


why do you have to go and have the same points I made before I made them!!!! :P


It's cool, I feel less of a zendeeq now. Also, Your English is also more neat.. or neater?

@huaxiong90:

Jordanian Psychiatrists are Jokes, disrespectful and never really studied psychology, I am totally sure it's the case for whole middle east. I know because at I've wasted my savings and time on them seeking a cure of homosexuality. I used to take antidepressants and lithium to "correct" my sexual preference. The last psychiatrist I treid asked me first if I "baneek or batnak?" and ended the session after I answered, prescribed drugs and told me to come back after 3 months.

I decided to read psychology on my own at some point to get to the roots of my "problem" but I found psychology to be really entertaining so I continued reading whatever books I owned. Therefor, I know a little about schizophrenia. I know that you can't diagnose someone and call him  schizophrenic until the syptoms last for 6 months. Jordanian doctors diagnose schizophrenia and prescribe drugs for patients who JUST started complaining of the syptoms, laughable. I know also that psychotic patients can be either sightful or insightful about their condition, so it was totally normal for your aunt to be aware of what was happening.

By the way, I am not trying to "look down" on your beliefs my friend. For all I know you may be right and Jin can control humans. For now, I'll just choose to believe it's all about mental disorders until I learn more.

 

EDIT: why can't I unbold this mess -.-