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Forums - General - Trolls can now be sent to prison

Kasz216 said:

So in otherwords.  It's your opinion that the vast majority of people in the media, most people who post on message boards and the like,  all should be thrown in jail for harrassment.

Including people like say... John Stewart from the Daily Show... or really even yourself.  What with as eaisly as you throw the word bigot around.

Well, Jon Stewart has a variety show that's essentially made to parody (and there's nothing wrong with that, since he's show isn't 'serious'), and I don't think I've ever used that word if it wasn't somehow connected or relevant to the actions of the person/group I was referring to and the subject at hand.

Trying to discredit an opponent using fabricated (or not) material, often made especially to take advantage of a negative bias, and quite irrelevant to the issue at hand (e.g. 'accusing' the president of being a muslim) is really one of the chief causes of the decline of modern politics and the modern media. Even the founding fathers, whom you guys idolise so much, would probably be disgusted that the example I gave would even be considered an issue worth noting by the media (considering that back then the media was a chief actor that encouraged rational critical debate regarding politics, as opposed to what exists today).

Also, not all insults count as harassment. For example this guy commited harassment because he chose victims, and then repeatedly posted insulting and disturbing messages in places where he knew his victims would see them, in order to hurt them. Most of the things that go around in the media would fall more in the realm of defaimation, rather than harassment.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

So in otherwords.  It's your opinion that the vast majority of people in the media, most people who post on message boards and the like,  all should be thrown in jail for harrassment.

Including people like say... John Stewart from the Daily Show... or really even yourself.  What with as eaisly as you throw the word bigot around.

Well, Jon Stewart has a variety show that's essentially made to parody (and there's nothing wrong with that, since he's show isn't 'serious'), and I don't think I've ever used that word if it wasn't somehow connected or relevant to the actions of the person/group I was referring to and the subject at hand.

Trying to discredit an opponent using fabricated (or not) material, often made especially to take advantage of a negative bias, and quite irrelevant to the issue at hand (e.g. 'accusing' the president of being a muslim) is really one of the chief causes of the decline of modern politics and the modern media. Even the founding fathers, whom you guys idolise so much, would probably be disgusted that the example I gave would even be considered an issue worth noting by the media (considering that back then the media was a chief actor that encouraged rational critical debate regarding politics, as opposed to what exists today).

Also, not all insults count as harassment. For example this guy commited harassment because he chose victims, and then repeatedly posted insulting and disturbing messages in places where he knew his victims would see them, in order to hurt them. Most of the things that go around in the media would fall more in the realm of defaimation, rather than harassment.


I'm guessing you've never read comments about what John Adams and Thomas Jefferson said about each other.

Or ever heard of "Abe Afircanus the First".

http://www.library.illinois.edu/blog/digitizedbotw/2007/09/abraham_africanus_i_his_secret.html

 

 

And again, plenty of people, pick targets and repeatidly bash them with harrassing comments, calling them murderers or retarded or whatever and do so in places they know the people will hear them, because the meida will pick up the story and hand deliver it to them even if they try and avoid it.



kowenicki said:
Kasz216 said:
kowenicki said:
Kasz216 said:
 

What does the British government have to do with this guys sentencing....?  The British government has no power to over-rule an English court decision by a Judge.     And it isnt a crime if the man has no concept of a crime... you have much more faith in the US treatment of overseas defendents than I do.

The whole point is they feel someone with Aspergers would be treated differently and unfairly in the US.

If people with aspergers are being arrested and thrown in jail for the max penalty with no mitigating factors, for lesser crimes...

That destroys all credibility in the arguement.


I am going to have to disagree with you for the first time ever on this one... (we usually agree on these big picture topics)

I will take my moral compass over yours...

Any crime where people are hurt either mentally or physically is a bigger crime than hacking a computer network for a bit of a giggle,  the world has some funny ideas about the severity of certain crimes imo. 

So, if someone calls you a name... that's more of a crime then hacking the a defense computer responsible for the lives of millions of people, leaving the system more vuleranble to attacks and stealing information and passwords and storing them on your own completely unprotected computer and deleting critical system files which shut down entire networks of computers responsible for national defense including computer systems directly after a major terroist attack.

It's a miracle the consequences of the hack weren't worse.  Though i'm sure plenty of US technitions who had to fix it and the people who's security was broken sure probably felt "harrassed" and plenty of people were probably panicked and scared by the fact that entire networks dedicated to the national defense of the country were suddenly down right after a major terrorist attack.



Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

So in otherwords.  It's your opinion that the vast majority of people in the media, most people who post on message boards and the like,  all should be thrown in jail for harrassment.

Including people like say... John Stewart from the Daily Show... or really even yourself.  What with as eaisly as you throw the word bigot around.

Well, Jon Stewart has a variety show that's essentially made to parody (and there's nothing wrong with that, since he's show isn't 'serious'), and I don't think I've ever used that word if it wasn't somehow connected or relevant to the actions of the person/group I was referring to and the subject at hand.

Trying to discredit an opponent using fabricated (or not) material, often made especially to take advantage of a negative bias, and quite irrelevant to the issue at hand (e.g. 'accusing' the president of being a muslim) is really one of the chief causes of the decline of modern politics and the modern media. Even the founding fathers, whom you guys idolise so much, would probably be disgusted that the example I gave would even be considered an issue worth noting by the media (considering that back then the media was a chief actor that encouraged rational critical debate regarding politics, as opposed to what exists today).

Also, not all insults count as harassment. For example this guy commited harassment because he chose victims, and then repeatedly posted insulting and disturbing messages in places where he knew his victims would see them, in order to hurt them. Most of the things that go around in the media would fall more in the realm of defaimation, rather than harassment.


I'm guessing you've never read comments about what John Adams and Thomas Jefferson said about each other.

Or ever heard of "Abe Afircanus the First".

http://www.library.illinois.edu/blog/digitizedbotw/2007/09/abraham_africanus_i_his_secret.html

 

 

And again, plenty of people, pick targets and repeatidly bash them with harrassing comments, calling them murderers or retarded or whatever and do so in places they know the people will hear them, because the meida will pick up the story and hand deliver it to them even if they try and avoid it.

Abraham Lincoln was not one of the founding fathers, and that pamphlet you presented kinda coicides with the period when the media started going downhill.

I heard that Adamd and Jefferson had issues, but I must admit that I have no knowledge of what went down between them.

Regarding your last paragraph, that could actually be considered slander (or even harassment).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:

Abraham Lincoln was not one of the founding fathers, and that pamphlet you presented kinda coicides with the period when the media started going downhill.

I heard that Adamd and Jefferson had issues, but I must admit that I have no knowledge of what went down between them.

Regarding your last paragraph, that could actually be considered slander (or even harassment).

Thomas Jefferson was accused of being black, having an affair with a black woman (granted true, but they probably didn't know that), lots of stuff like that.

John Adams was accused of wanting to set up a dictatorship.

All kinds of more stuff like that.  Politics have always been like that.



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padib said:
Kasz216 said:
kowenicki said:
Kasz216 said:
 

What does the British government have to do with this guys sentencing....?  The British government has no power to over-rule an English court decision by a Judge.     And it isnt a crime if the man has no concept of a crime... you have much more faith in the US treatment of overseas defendents than I do.

The whole point is they feel someone with Aspergers would be treated differently and unfairly in the US.

If people with aspergers are being arrested and thrown in jail for the max penalty with no mitigating factors, for lesser crimes...

That destroys all credibility in the arguement.

Furhtemore, the government should be outraged at what happened and be speaking on this internet trolls behalf right? 

I've yet to hear any public outrage.

Because justice has been served. Sorry for trolling a bit but it's true. Someone had to take the shit for it at some point, these things have been much too common (suicides due to harassment). If one guy had to serve the punishment so as to give a clear message to the others not to do it, then well it's a bit unfair but so be it. And I'm looking at it from a philosophical point of view at this point, not legal. I may be totally wrong here, but that's how I feel about it.

Hey i'm not the one that could go to jail over it.

Also uh... nobody committed suicide due to harrasment.

Or at least not due to his harrassment.  He didn't even know any of the girls until after they had died.

He was basically arrested for taunting the parents of children who have died.



padib said:
Kasz216 said:
padib said:
Kasz216 said:
kowenicki said:
Kasz216 said:
 

What does the British government have to do with this guys sentencing....?  The British government has no power to over-rule an English court decision by a Judge.     And it isnt a crime if the man has no concept of a crime... you have much more faith in the US treatment of overseas defendents than I do.

The whole point is they feel someone with Aspergers would be treated differently and unfairly in the US.

If people with aspergers are being arrested and thrown in jail for the max penalty with no mitigating factors, for lesser crimes...

That destroys all credibility in the arguement.

Furhtemore, the government should be outraged at what happened and be speaking on this internet trolls behalf right? 

I've yet to hear any public outrage.

Because justice has been served. Sorry for trolling a bit but it's true. Someone had to take the shit for it at some point, these things have been much too common (suicides due to harassment). If one guy had to serve the punishment so as to give a clear message to the others not to do it, then well it's a bit unfair but so be it. And I'm looking at it from a philosophical point of view at this point, not legal. I may be totally wrong here, but that's how I feel about it.

Hey i'm not the one that could go to jail over it.

Also uh... nobody committed suicide due to harrasment.

Or at least not due to his harrassment.  He didn't even know any of the girls until after they had died.

He was basically arrested for taunting the parents of children who have died.

Hah! I love it. Then again this isn't a rememberance page for Drew :)

You're right about him being arrested for taunting after her death, it wasn't clear to me given the article. Still, he's not just a troll, he's a sick one. Trolling is okay to an extent, but that's just defamation and hate especially in a place where the person's life is being honored (a rememberance page). I believe our species still understands honor, so maybe that's why they took it so seriously. I mean, maybe if it was on another site it would be less offensive to the parents. It's just the symbol of it is much worse to bear on a tombstone or in a rememberance page.

EDIT: But I think the article didn't give enough information on the Bullying part, alledged to be the reason of her suicide. Are there other  articles that mention those events?

Per the article: "Miss MacBryde had thrown herself under a train in February after being bullied."


She was bullied by classmates because her parents got a divorce... i'm sure the parents divorce played a part in it as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357144/Natasha-MacBryde-bullied-divorced-parents-dies-rail-track.html


I'd agree what he did as wrong and about as evil as you can get, however not everything "wrong" should be illegal.

Nor should evil people be thrown in jail on BS crimes just because people don't like them.



sapphi_snake said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

They should determine whether Asperger syndrome let him understand well enough that what he was doing was wrong, if his ability to understand that is crippled, they should cure him. Obviously the cure should be mandatory, he couldn't refuse it, as, willing and conscious or not, he's harming other people, and he should be allowed to access the net again only after he completes rehab for alcoholism and if he carefully gets the psychiatric support he needs for all the time he needs it, even lifetime. If he was partially aware of what he was doing, he should receive mandatory treatment and, if the penalty appliable to what he did, considering the mitigating factors, still exceeds the period of mandatory treatment, a period of mandatory socially useful work, while continuing treatment.

But punishing just him sends at least two horribly wrong signals: that justice is happy to catch and punish the first poor turd it can, just to make public opinion and the victims or their relatives happy, and after that it doesn't care anymore, and that the rich can get away with crime.

That's not how Asperger syndrome works. Look it up online. They're perfectly capable of controlling their actions (they're at least perfectly capable of controlling what they post online), and they can't be 'cured'. Regarding your previous post, this guy had bullied other people in a similar fashion, which clearly shows a criminal pattern. He deliberately went out to harass people, and looked for similar scenarios such as this. Even that YouTube video padib was talking abotu shows that this guy was no crazy person being controlled by voices he was hearing, but a cruel calculated individual.


What I read is that they can control their actions, but they have serious difficulties in social interaction. It can't be "healed", but it can be "cured", helping them in what they have most difficulties with. They know the meaning of what they say or write, but it's possible they don't get the appropriateness or inappropriateness of saying some things in some circumstances. In many case they can even learn the bases of humour, but not fully understand its purpose and when it's appropriate or not. What he did could be due to have mechanically learned the mechanisms of black humour, but not understood when it's inappropriate. His repetitive behaviour in trolling the relatives and friends of dead girls can also be caused by some of the the typical Asperger's communication and behaviour impairments.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:


What I read is that they can control their actions, but they have serious difficulties in social interaction. It can't be "healed", but it can be "cured", helping them in what they have most difficulties with. They know the meaning of what they say or write, but it's possible they don't get the appropriateness or inappropriateness of saying some things in some circumstances. In many case they can even learn the bases of humour, but not fully understand its purpose and when it's appropriate or not. What he did could be due to have mechanically learned the mechanisms of black humour, but not understood when it's inappropriate. His repetitive behaviour in trolling the relatives and friends of dead girls can also be caused by some of the the typical Asperger's communication and behaviour impairments.

Or more likely he was just a heartless jerk who liked mentally torturing people. People with Asperger syndrome can be 'evil', you know.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:


What I read is that they can control their actions, but they have serious difficulties in social interaction. It can't be "healed", but it can be "cured", helping them in what they have most difficulties with. They know the meaning of what they say or write, but it's possible they don't get the appropriateness or inappropriateness of saying some things in some circumstances. In many case they can even learn the bases of humour, but not fully understand its purpose and when it's appropriate or not. What he did could be due to have mechanically learned the mechanisms of black humour, but not understood when it's inappropriate. His repetitive behaviour in trolling the relatives and friends of dead girls can also be caused by some of the the typical Asperger's communication and behaviour impairments.

Or more likely he was just a heartless jer who liked mentally torturing people. People with Asperger syndrome can be 'evil', you know.

Perfectly possible in theory, but doctors should visit him and determine it, from the little we know about him, he's not one of those with Asperger that manage to have a normal life, he looks like one of those seriously handicapped in social life and that didn't receive adequate assistance to overcome their problems instead. And if I can't really say whether he's evil or not, I'm 100% sure that the "normal" schoolmates that bullied that poor girl until she committed suicide are actually evil and were totally conscious and willing when they did it, so it makes me furious that judges want to punish that turd that never trolled any of the dead girls when they were alive, he didn't even know them, but let the evil girls that bullied the last victim get away with it. Punishment must be proportional to guilt, those guilty of a more serious offence and with less mitigating factors must receive a heavier penalty, those guilty of a less serious one and with more mitigating factors must receive a lighter one: in this case, bully schoolgirls received NO penalty, so, applying the principle of proportionality, what should be the penalty for the poor turd? 



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!