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Final-Fan on 13 January 2008

I don't fear change, but one of my concerns about the FairTax is that is completely untested on any size and scope remotely close to what is proposed. Anything less than a complete success would be a disaster for the United States, so I think a little caution is in order.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Eomund on 13 January 2008

There seems to be some idea that Americans for Fair Taxation is some group that is willfully manipulating numbers to see this new FairTax scheme work. I do not know how this started. AFFT will not benefit in any way, other than what the rest of America will experience. How could they get any benefit other than what the FairTax brings? They can't lobby congress under the FairTax to benefit themselves. The only way they will benefit will be in knowing that they helped change America for the better.

You seem to be thinking that they are willfully biased against any other tax scheme, when the truth is that they believe that this is the best tax plan proposed. Why then would any graph, chart, or number be intentionally wrong? They themselves did not do all the research; they commissioned universities and other economic study groups to look at the FairTax and the effects it would have on America.

Drop this sentiment that they have something to gain by promoting the FairTax.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

Final-Fan on 13 January 2008

I don't know if you're addressing me -- I have mentioned that the AFT is not exactly a neutral party but I have never made a big deal of bias in their projections* -- but I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that a group devoted to promoting the FairTax is probably going to paint a rosy picture for it, whether that be a conscious or subconscious act. For instance, "Americans for Fair Taxation consistently chooses from among the most optimistic [economic] growth projections [for if the FairTax is implemented.]"
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

*Aside, that is, from the blatant and undeniable bias introduced by assuming a tax evasion rate of 0% (as of 2007), which I will continue to harp on until every FairTax booster on the goddamned planet admits is bad statistics; and that, consequently, the true revenue-neutral FairTax rate would have to exceed the current AFT-calculated rate.

P.S. If they didn't have something to gain by promoting the FairTax, they wouldn't be a multimillion-dollar organization devoted to promoting the FairTax. I'm not saying that it's somehow going to make them all billionaires if it gets passed into law, but they DO have an agenda to push and they ARE pushing it.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Entroper on 13 January 2008

One thing is clear; we would need a gradual transition to the FairTax if we ever do decide to implement it.



http://entroper.no-ip.org

Final-Fan on 13 January 2008
Entroper said:
One thing is clear; we would need a gradual transition to the FairTax if we ever do decide to implement it.

An island of agreement in a sea of contention.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Lingyis on 13 January 2008
Eomund said:
There seems to be some idea that Americans for Fair Taxation is some group that is willfully manipulating numbers to see this new FairTax scheme work. I do not know how this started. AFFT will not benefit in any way, other than what the rest of America will experience. How could they get any benefit other than what the FairTax brings? They can't lobby congress under the FairTax to benefit themselves. The only way they will benefit will be in knowing that they helped change America for the better.

You seem to be thinking that they are willfully biased against any other tax scheme, when the truth is that they believe that this is the best tax plan proposed. Why then would any graph, chart, or number be intentionally wrong? They themselves did not do all the research; they commissioned universities and other economic study groups to look at the FairTax and the effects it would have on America.

Drop this sentiment that they have something to gain by promoting the FairTax.

Uh, so that they can get their favorite tax scheme to be adopted?  Don't be so naive. 



the Wii is an epidemic.

koffieboon on 13 January 2008
Crono said:
The FairTax is change.

Lots of people fear change.

Thats what I see going on here.

Change isn't necessarily a good thing.

Calling it FairTax doesn't automatically makes it fair.



Andir on 14 January 2008
Final-Fan said:
one of my concerns about the FairTax is that is completely untested on any size and scope remotely close to what is proposed.
There are 6 states(?) according to the above post about 44 without income taxes.  Would you feel more comfortable if all the states went to a percentage tax before the feds?

 



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Eomund on 14 January 2008

Entroper it sounds good to have a gradual transition, but if you think about it this is not a good idea.
If we have at any time a federal tax on both income and consumption, the politicians will not give either of them up and the tax burden will increase to the point of economic collapse of America. The only way we can switch to the FairTax is cold turkey. Anything else is far too dangerous. I do not trust our politicians to make the right decision if both an income tax and the FairTax are working at the same time. That is too big a risk to take and if we don't go cold turkey we cannot take the risk of adding a consumption tax.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

Final-Fan on 14 January 2008
Eomund said:
Entroper it sounds good to have a gradual transition, but if you think about it this is not a good idea.
If we have at any time a federal tax on both income and consumption, the politicians will not give either of them up and the tax burden will increase to the point of economic collapse of America. The only way we can switch to the FairTax is cold turkey. Anything else is far too dangerous. I do not trust our politicians to make the right decision if both an income tax and the FairTax are working at the same time. That is too big a risk to take and if we don't go cold turkey we cannot take the risk of adding a consumption tax.
What Entroper and I were talking about is not "add some FairTax, then subtract some income tax, repeat" but rather "add some FairTax and subtract some income tax at the same time, then repeat". The total tax burden would not change (increase) at any point.

Why would this be unacceptable due to risk of "adding a consumption tax"?

I think I understand what you mean -- that we curently have NO national sales tax and that having income taxes and sales taxes at the same time would be dangerously tempting -- but it hasn't been a big problem with states AFAIK and the risk of putting the fate of the federal government -- the fate of the nation -- in the hands of an untested system is too great.

As has been discussed before, the FairTax proposes to replace 95% of current federal revenue sources, and no system like the FairTax has ever been implemented on a size and scope remotely close to this. Anything less than complete success would be disastrous.

[edit:  1400!]


Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!